ok, so when you said " 11.9 @ 120" that was probably a typo?

 

Since you appear to be certain about the 10.30@130 not 133 on this particular C8 I know of.....would you say 10.50@129 is unreachable without a supercharger or nitrous? Because one member is in fact on this forum and has already disclosed his entire NA application on his C8. Having said that, I don't believe that there are that many guys running their C8 with nitrous at the drag strip......because they can run consistent 10 seconds without it.

 

Andew@Cicio I am surprised and disappointed in your post and their is alot to unpack.
You played yourself from the very first paragraph, "..we have been high 9's with our 900TT C8...at around 140 mph." Which racing calculator do you use to suggest that this is a good e.t. for the power you advertise to make ?

Not designed to throw shade at you obviously

I've followed your company from the very start of the C8 and I can appreciate how you have pushed the platform to get better thru R&D. Thank you. I've seen you have many FI builds you have under your belt. Great. How many NA builds have you done ? None ? Yet, you speak as an authority on what is NOT possible naturally aspirated. Interesting.
If the Stage 1 Procharger kit is being puppy kicked by the guys at the top of the NA "fast list" then don't bash us, do better !!
We all have worked very hard to get where we are at and push our cars at the NA level, not sure where the hate is coming from.

​​​​​​My car is all motor.
My time slip reads 10.20@133+
I will be at Cecil Dragway in March to try and improve my time. I will buy your spectator ticket, you can go over my car with a fine tooth comb (like a thousand others have done over the last 2 1/2 years in the pits/staging lanes).

I will expect a public apology afterwards.

Regards,

Jim Duffy
Owner
Unicorn Pi** Fuel Co

 

Snowblind.........I really appreciate you coming forward regarding this particular debate which has been going on for the last 2 years perhaps. But I knew that at some point you had to come out and actually address this matter once again. Having said that, this is not a win win debate but just putting some facts at rest. THANKS YOU SIR

 

You've had your finger on the pulse of this platform since new and you see what cars are running and are capable of. Don't be bullied by some of these keyboard warriors who bench race only. It's nice to see more C8 owners that actually drag race their cars on the forums and can speak firsthand. I see the big build forged turbo guys are cranking out the numbers and that is fantastic, I don't see the boxed supercharger kits are quite there yet but they will be. Not sure why they just can't come out and admit they are still lining it out. Fake it till ya make it I guess lol.

 

Calm down Peter... its ok.

Unicorn Pi** Fuel Co... classic. Someone needs to make a gif of a unicorn peeing and make it an official smiley on this forum. Make it a rainbow or something

 

No that was their second run....

 

I think the "tuning" going on is limited and only a portion of the ECU has been unlocked or able to be fiddled with. Not enough of it can be messed with to get the full power out of the FI applications being installed without a piggyback system. Until we know what is actually being adjusted its anyone's guess though. As I have mentioned before if the system is installed correctly and its capable of XXXX power, there is nothing left to analyze but the tune. Ive tried reaching out to Trifecta and the people using them or their IP for tunes and no one will talk. Im in line with a few FI systems which will be coming out in the near future and the Native tune is what has drawn me to them. For the price of these systems I want the best bang for my buck. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of it soon.

 

We are not trying to throw shade at anyone.

Our car should trap around 150 with the power but we are fighting clutch slippage in the higher gears. This is with the best clutch available currently so we are hoping to go even further with clutch development for more power.

To be fair we have tested plenty of N/A setups and none have produced results like this which is why it is hard to believe. I assume your car has some type of trifecta tune on it for the N/A setup?

There is no hate btw, we aren't calling anyone out but just sharing our opinion, you'll notice there are plenty of haha's in there so no-one gets too offended...

Also to be fair I wasn't even comparing against a stage 1 pro charged car I was comparing to even bigger packages like our C700 which run trap speeds similar to your N/A setup. I am really curious what mods you have done to the car to get speeds like this without any power adders.

Personally I would love to come watch the car run but Cecil Dragway isn't right down the street unfortunately.


Thanks
Andrew

 

I won't lie I love family guy so this was funny...

 

@Carlover247
I've been following these developments as well. My observations are:

It took some time, but the twin turbo installers got a head start on working with "piggyback" ECUs. Perhaps the Supercharger tuners will eventually get there.

With TT installations, the piggyback ECU can control additional/port injectors, fuel/air, timing, boost by gear, clutch slippage, and probably much more that I'm unaware of. Some of the tuners show off with their 1/4 mi. times and have produced very impressive results, although you probably wouldn't want to drive it in that mode everyday. But wait, they can also provide you with different tunes by pressing a few buttons on their controller. It will be interesting to see how both options progress. FuelTech and Motec are primary players in this area. Fueltech has a great video discussing their FT600 module and how it works with the OEM ECU, rather than trying to integrate directly with it. Here's a video they put together in 2020: And another one (1/4 mi. record setting) from a year ago: Cicio, LateModelRacecraft, and Peitz Performance, and others stay very busy with Turbo installations. ETS is a major provider of TwinTurbo "kits".
By using the piggyback approach, they can fine tune the "tune", for multiple purposes: e.g. Street, Strip, Track. The downside, of course, are the additional costs (both materials and labor). Long term reliability is also a big question mark in my mind (lots of additional sensors, injectors, cooling, etc. - depending on how fast you want to go). The factory drivetrain warranty, of course, goes away....

So far, the tunes/flashes for the Supercharger's OEM ECU seem to be very specific to the manufacturer's hardware "kit". Any additional modifications after the supercharger is installed are more likely to reduce performance, rather than improve it.

Rumor has it that ProCharger may have an Exclusive C8 OEM PCM flash/tune agreement with Trifecta. But, no flexibility (at this time) to modify that flash/tune.

Lingenfelter is doing their C-CAL modification to the OEM PCM. I still don't understand what the C-CAL procedure/process is. If anyone can explain it, please do.

Callaway (see the separate Callaway Supercharger thread on the CF) has announced a NEW Supercharger that they will be delivering/installing beginning later this Qtr. It's not clear who is helping them with their "tune" of the OEM PCM or if they are doing it all in-house. Will any modifications be helpful, or detrimental, after their supercharger is installed?

Some of the Supercharger providers are providing extended warranties, but primarily on "their" hardware. Callaway is advertising a 3/36 warranty for the drivetrain, which can be serviced at a GM dealer. That sounds like a big plus... But, will their build provide sufficient HP/TQ to sway C8 drivers their way?

I do plan to to add a Power Adder, but it's looking like it might be a few more months until there is more clarity on the Supercharger options. I expect the TT solutions to only continue to get better during that time.

If I've omitted, or misrepresented, other significant players in this area, please feel free to add additional comments to correct, or clarify mine. I'm aware that there are many other performance players than I've mentioned above, and I'm not trying to slight any of them, but these are the ones I see most active on Youtube describing and showing their offerings.

Andrew @Cicio Performance - Your comments, from the Industry perspective, would be much appreciated.

 

This is an excellent reply coming from Ciccio. I am quite sure this Procharger will be running low 10's and higher trap speed in the future or even sooner. But for right now it's what it is.

 

what does the car average over a handful of runs or your pile of slips?

 

There's just such a variation on times and trap speeds with FI cars.... I see 842whp cars trapping 130.... then I see 600whp cars trapping 130.... then I see NA cars trapping 130...

 

It appears to me that there is a very important set of conditions required to "hook up" in a way that provides optimum trap times and speeds no matter what your max HP and TQ numbers are. Based on the initial Trifecta report, they gave GM high marks for the optimized OEM LT2, DCT configuration. Relatively small performance improvements (e.g. 600 HP) to the engine can be handled by the OEM drivetrain without issues, but once in the 650-700 (and above) HP range, clutch slippage begins to become a problem. Clutch plates and/or a Clutch pressure module can be added to reduce slippage. The next weak links are the OEM axles, which can twist/break. Aftermarket replacements can "fix" that issue. Then, it boils down to minimizing engine temps while optimizing the launch and shift points (boost by gear) which also need to take into account the tires and track conditions. Anderson Dick (FuelTech) discusses (see post #31 above) the various "gotchas" that need to be addressed (for now) with a piggyback ECU. Lots of real time tweaking is required in order to minimize trap times and maximizing speed. Port injection and a 2ndary fuel source is also a big part of attaining the high HP/TQ numbers.
So, just adding lots of power does not guarantee better trap times. The tuners that address the full drivetrain (and it's not cheap) can consistently deliver impressive results.
I'm sure that there are other factors that I may have omitted. Others should feel free to comment with their own experiences or observations.

 

I think most of us are aware of those issues that hinders the Force Induction platform. Apparently there is more to it regarding the supercharger itself. Just more time is needed to get it straight. Supposedly that may be the reason it's taking Callaway so long for their debut. Just my .02

 

You've done a good job covering the different options out there brother!

The piggyback system is going to always have advantages over the stock ecu for controlling things like boost, auxiliary fuel systems, etc. but we are still working towards a factory tuning solution that we feel will be a big advantage in our lower power packages (C600 and C700) that don't require additional fueling. Unfortunately we have hit some road blocks along the way with the factory tuning but believe me when I say we are still pushing forward.

When it comes to some of the supercharger options on the market the information is very limited and we like to keep an unbiased opinion before seeing them first hand.

The one supercharger kit we have had experience with is the Procharger kit. While we haven't been able to make the advertised power that the kit has we have been able to pull 150+whp over stock with their stage 2 kit. The quality and packaging of the Procharger kit is very good and the components are all high quality. The only negatives we have found on the kit so far is the power output not living up to advertised numbers and the install numbers seem to be a little lower than what it actually takes but that being said Im sure we will get faster at it after installing a few more.

The thing I think most people need to remember is that these cars are still under serious development, No one, including us, has this car 100% figured out. Of course this is evident just in the lack of tuning available for the car. People need to realize that while shops like us have made significant improvements on the car and the cars are making great power and driving well, they are still always improving. If someone is looking to modify their corvette with a perfected package and doesnt want to deal with any developmental growing pains then trying to make big power with the C8 might not be the best option for them.

The good news is the LT2 platform in the C8 is very stout. We put over 17k miles on our shop C8 making 900+whp on the stock engine and only recently put a built engine in because we are always trying to push further haha.

Thanks
Andrew

 

Yep, I'm also on the Callaway list and hoping for a surprise to the upside. Their newly designed supercharger sounds encouraging and I agree that the devil is in the details of how it's integrated into the OEM PCM/ECU. If they can provide a significant increase in performance that's seamlessly integrated via the OEM PCM while also providing a 3/36 warranty serviced by GM; all for the mid-$20k target price they'll have a huge winner.

 

I get you.... but adding power "should" increase trap speeds..... What's the point of having 850rwhp if you trap 130? It's not like the car wasn't hooking up.... it pulled a 1.5 60ft....

 

isn’t the point to go faster proportional to the spend?