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Dominic, point me to the issue where Corvettes have ever been criticized for their lack of handling or mechanical grip? Give me a constructive point of view, as to why you feel the platform needs a different suspension, other than the fact that you don't like the terminology that people give it. "Leaf spring"....
Why don't you ask that to the guys who did the suspension work for the 2019 Camaro ZL1? Maybe they know something about that.
Dominic, point me to the issue where Corvettes have ever been criticized for their lack of handling or mechanical grip? Give me a constructive point of view, as to why you feel the platform needs a different suspension, other than the fact that you don't like the terminology that people give it. "Leaf spring"....
Both the Z06/7 and the GS/7 are pulling a media tested 1.20G on the skid pad. Sometimes the old “tired and true” is very efficient, and in the case, very effective also.
You can't really judge a car's suspension simply by lateral G on a skidpad. Yes, that's a good number. It has a lot to do with tire size and kerb weight. I'd rather use a composite of metrics or track times keeping as much as possible equal. The AMG GT R has same tires with lower skidpad figure, yet with less power, more weight, higher COG and still managed the same time around LS.
Originally Posted by Shaka
Describe the suspension you envisage in the ME Vette.
I for one think it's time to have continuously variable spring rate. No getting under your car to turn nuts in order to change ride height. No getting that floating feel in tour mode when the springs are still track level stiff. We've seen VW group successfully implement it in luxury and heavy duty cars. Time for a sports car version.
Originally Posted by Dominic Sorresso
Not sure that proves anything other than Ferrari is more **** about their cars than GM.
To add to that GM did provide a rough track calibration. It's not as though GM does not calibrate for specific tracks, I think they provided that calibration for a specific test!
I don't see how folks turn a positive (the ability to vary suspension settings to suit the track) into a negative.
It's also unclear to me whether GM can use front lift system with leafs. I sure would have loved to have the option as to not rub away my front lip.
Originally Posted by theplatinumog
Within the last year they added a few feet of pavement on the exit of turn 6 at Laguna. And that turn leads in to a long straight.
I assume you are quoting motor trend numbers?
Yes. MT numbers. I didn't notice Turn 6 being different/faster last time. Then again I have to lift so much I got little in the way of speed anymore in 6.
Last edited by SBC_and_a_stick; 12-12-2017 at 08:21 PM.
Is this a real answer? Should I post a picture of a Cadillac Deville, would that be relevant?
You seriously want to suggest that a DeVille is in the same universe as a car that pulls 1.1g’s? You asked about using coils over leaf springs and the Camaro guys have your answer.
Here’s the MT article on the LE. It also indicates that the MultiMatic dampers being used are currently those being used on the Ford GT, and Aston Martin Vulcan.
Specifically in the article, the LE blistered the Nurburgring better than a C7,
“ mention the above because Camaro bossman Al Oppenheiser shared an after-dinner story with us about his new Camaro ZL1 1LE, the laser-focused track-day special version of the brutal ZL1. A Camaro engineer who I’m gonna name (Bill Wise) knocked off a 7:16.03 lap of the legendary Nordschleife circuit at the Nürburgring. For some perspective, a Ferrari Enzo did a 7:25.21, a Ferrari 488 GTB did a 7:21.63, and a Porsche 911 GT2 RS did a 7:18.00. Bill was driving a Camaro. Crazy, no? Want to hear crazier? That 7:16.03 is quicker than any other General Motors (cough, Corvette, cough) product has gone around the ’Ring. His time is also more than 13 seconds quicker than what the standard ZL1 has done, 7:29.60. Al’s story, however, was one of tragedy. A little window of time had suddenly opened up one afternoon in Germany, and Bill jumped into the red ZL1 1LE and managed to run a lap in the 7:13 neighborhood. A Lexus LFA Nürburgring package ran a 7:14.64. But because everything happened so fast, Team Camaro didn’t document it. No GoPro, no one thought to hit record on the PDR, no onboard data capture equipment—nothing. These things happen, though mostly it seems to Camaros”
You seriously want to suggest that a DeVille is in the same universe as a car that pulls 1.1g’s? You asked about using coils over leaf springs and the Camaro guys have your answer.
What is your first language? You sure don't comprehend English too well. Answer the question. You don't know enough to do so.
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:13.90 Chevrolet Corvette C7 Z06 Christian Gebhardt 24 April 2017 Sport Auto (8/2017), Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 ZP.[44][45]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:14.64 Lexus LFA Nürburgring Package Akira Iida 31 August 2011 Lexus conducted test. OEM "Nürburgring Package", Bridgestone Potenza RE070, additional roll cage.[46][47][48]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:14.89 Donkervoort D8 RS Michael Düchting 2006 Observed by Sport Auto, Dunlop Sportmaxx.[49]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:16.04 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 1LE (2018) Bill Wise 2017 General Motors conducted test, OEM Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar 3R.[50][51]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:18 Porsche 911 GT2 RS (997.2) Timo Kluck 2010 Porsche conducted test, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup N2.[52][53]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:18 Porsche 911 GT3 (991.2) Christian Gebhardt June 2017 Sport Auto (7/2017), Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 N1, PDK, bucket seat and harness.[54][55]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:19.63 Chevrolet Corvette C6 ZR1 (2012) Jim Mero 9 June 2011 General Motors conducted test. Base car, OEM Michelin Pilot Sport Cup ZP option.[57][58]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:21 Ferrari 488 GTB 19/2016 Auto Zeitung (19/2016).[59]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:25.21 Enzo Ferrari Marc Basseng August 2008 Evo Magazine conducted test[78]
Whoa Mr. or is it Ms. Shaka? You should take a pill. You have your response from people more expert than me. The ZL1 Camaro equalled fhe times of the Z06 at the Ring while carrying ~ 500lbs more. Power was the same. Go ask them why they decided to use coilovers. I swapped leafs for coilovers on my C4 ZR and enjoy the ride much more.
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Originally Posted by Shaka
What is your first language? You sure don't comprehend English too well. Answer the question. You don't know enough to do so.
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:13.90 Chevrolet Corvette C7 Z06 Christian Gebhardt 24 April 2017 Sport Auto (8/2017), Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 ZP.[44][45]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:14.64 Lexus LFA Nürburgring Package Akira Iida 31 August 2011 Lexus conducted test. OEM "Nürburgring Package", Bridgestone Potenza RE070, additional roll cage.[46][47][48]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:14.89 Donkervoort D8 RS Michael Düchting 2006 Observed by Sport Auto, Dunlop Sportmaxx.[49]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:16.04 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 1LE (2018) Bill Wise 2017 General Motors conducted test, OEM Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar 3R.[50][51]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:18 Porsche 911 GT2 RS (997.2) Timo Kluck 2010 Porsche conducted test, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup N2.[52][53]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:18 Porsche 911 GT3 (991.2) Christian Gebhardt June 2017 Sport Auto (7/2017), Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 N1, PDK, bucket seat and harness.[54][55]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:19.63 Chevrolet Corvette C6 ZR1 (2012) Jim Mero 9 June 2011 General Motors conducted test. Base car, OEM Michelin Pilot Sport Cup ZP option.[57][58]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:21 Ferrari 488 GTB 19/2016 Auto Zeitung (19/2016).[59]
20,600 m (67,600 ft) 7:25.21 Enzo Ferrari Marc Basseng August 2008 Evo Magazine conducted test[78]
Considering the C7 Z06 Z07 and the Camaro ZL1 1LE were only 1:25 seconds off at Laguna Seca, wouldn't this debunk the often supported leaf spring as an advantage?
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There's more than one way to skin the cat and get comparably close lap times; the old high spring rate versus lower spring rate argument.
But what about a street/track combo? One elegant solution about the transverse leaf is that, for a given roll resistance, the transverse leaf delivers a lower spring rate at the wheel versus a coil, everything else the same. (Or for a given spring rate at the wheel, the transverse gives higher roll resistance). That can have benefits for ride quality as well as handling.
I haven't found a need to adjust my ride height more than once and with newer tools such as the DSC controller, you can get a lot out of the system used now. I'm not totally sold on the need for coil-overs.
The coil overs do look good on the Camaro, but the Camaro design team didn't exactly have a transverse leaf spring architecture as an easy starting option, so they did what they could and the car generates good lap times with this combo. I think you have to compare more than lap times to argue replacement on the Vette, though.
But what about a street/track combo? One elegant solution about the transverse leaf is that, for a given roll resistance, the transverse leaf delivers a lower spring rate at the wheel versus a coil, everything else the same. (Or for a given spring rate at the wheel, the transverse gives higher roll resistance). That can have benefits for ride quality as well as handling.
Mmm. The two mount points are 18" apart. If you deflect the spring at the wheel, the opposite side of the spring is also deflected by the same amount. This is the built in roll resistance of this Dave Hill (Cadillac guy) design. The spring rate remains constant even in roll. A coil spring rate will also remain constant in roll provided no ARB is fitted. If an ARB is fitted to both suspensions, the spring rate will increase in roll. The Stingray has no additional ARB. You can't beat Corvettes composite leaf springs for a compliant ride on rough surfaces. The desired properties of the Corvette leaf spring can be tuned at the time of manufacture by altering the section across the span in thickness and width especially between the two mount points. even for a progressive rate. There are some seriously dumb members on this forum who can't grasp the genius and the beauty of this advanced design. Check the vid above.
You seriously want to suggest that a DeVille is in the same universe as a car that pulls 1.1g’s? You asked about using coils over leaf springs and the Camaro guys have your answer.
I'm sure you're aware that even the C5Z almost pulled 1.1g on old school 15yr old tech Goodyears right? The C7Z pulls 1.2g, you know this as well, correct? You know that both those cars have transverse composite leafs, right?
Mmm. The two mount points are 18" apart. If you deflect the spring at the wheel, the opposite side of the spring is also deflected by the same amount. This is the built in roll resistance of this Dave Hill (Cadillac guy) design. The spring rate remains constant even in roll. A coil spring rate will also remain constant in roll provided no ARB is fitted. If an ARB is fitted to both suspensions, the spring rate will increase in roll. The Stingray has no additional ARB. You can't beat Corvettes composite leaf springs for a compliant ride on rough surfaces. The desired properties of the Corvette leaf spring can be tuned at the time of manufacture by altering the section across the span in thickness and width especially between the two mount points. even for a progressive rate. There are some seriously dumb members on this forum who can't grasp the genius and the beauty of this advanced design. Check the vid above.
I'm sure you're aware that even the C5Z almost pulled 1.1g on old school 15yr old tech Goodyears right? The C7Z pulls 1.2g, you know this as well, correct? You know that both those cars have transverse composite leafs, right?
Oh look. Coilovers possibly on the C8 ME. Maybe you should make the Corvette team aware of those results also.
Great post. Besides the coil over suspension, I also see what appears to be an OHV NA V8 engine.
Wouldn’t be surprised by that. Other documents indicate there will initially be a continuation of the C7 FE platform. So the OHV motor may be the “stingray” of the C8 generation. Followed by the more potent DOHC V8s.
The commentariat gets hung up on comparatively unimportant stuff that's easy to see and ignores the subtle things that actually matter. Tire compound, geometry, rate, etc. make a car fast. Not the shape of the spring or the color of the shocks.
The transverse leafs are an elegant solution. I'd like to see them stay. But any number of mundane design or production details could tip the balance one way or the other, details that have nothing to do with scoring the ultimate 'ring time.
It's a passenger car and consumer product. Everything is a trade-off. If for example GM wants adjustable ride height on the C8 so it doesn't scrape on speed bumps, they will choose coil springs only because they're easier to integrate with a height adjuster. Big deal.
12-12-2017, 12:05 PM
