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What will the C8 Front Engine Generation Corvette entail ?
There seems to be two camps on what the C8 generation Corvette is. This has surprisingly become a contentious issue with the Corvette faithful. One side thinks there will only be a mid engined version. The other side thinks we will have both front engined models and a mid engined model. Since there currently is a 65 year history of front engined Corvettes, why would Chevrolet ever want to walk away from that fan base? More importantly why wouldn't they do both and expand the demographics of the Corvette buyer? I personally think they will build both and we can go over the attributes of both configurations. Looking at how successful the C7 generation has been, why wouldn't they just massage and expand new technologies into the C7 platform to give us the best FE yet ! They already have in place the robotic equipment to build the C7 space frame chassis. New advancements on the mid engine chassis have shown high-pressure die-cast aluminum or magnesium structural ribbed chassis stiffeners, struts, and brackets. The new ME is also using an advanced mixed-material approach for the lightweight body structure and that tech would certainly transfer over to the C8 FE chassis. The new C8 FE chassis would therefore most likely be lighter, stronger, and stiffer. Keeping the same body panel mounting point locations would then allow them to redesign the exterior body shape and in effect just switch out the body panels. A virtual new body design could be implemented easily and efficiently. A entirely new driver centric interior design could also be developed with a slightly higher level of quality specifications to give us the best FE interior ever. We know that they are developing the latest SBC OHV generation engine that in effect could be called the LT2. Most likely the suspension, brakes, and other control systems would carry over and could also be enhanced. Realizing that we currently have four FE models(Stingray, GS, ZO6, ZR1) they could still maintain that model progression. One big change that would most certainly get approval would be to redesign the front fascia to accommodate better breathing and reduced heat soak. I can see the new C8 ZO6 having a ZR1 style front fascia with 3 large openings to satisfy the track guys. Fixing any C7 issues while modernizing the FE platform would still create the best FE ever. Of course there will be a plethora of other changes so that we can expand the wide range of buyers. Your Thoughts please !!
IF we have a front-engined Corvette after 2021 model year, which IMO will be greatly determined on how “sales successful” the ME is, it will have the following changes:
1) AEB (automatic emergency braking) as that will be required by Fed rules at that time;
2) BSP (blind spot protection), which is already in many $20,000 vehicles, desired by many, and as the insurance data comes in, may additionally be insurance rate “encouraged”;
3) New front and rear fascias;
4) New hood;
5) Changed front-fender duct visual design;
6) A few interior visual upgrades so it “looks newer;
7) Perhaps components of the ME’s revised dash (again so it looks newer);
8) Has a standard 500 HP ME LT1 motor (though its model designation could be different);
9) Minor suspension upgrades based on years of additional “learning”;
10) Revised emblems to reflect it will be the C8.
Nice well written thread ,like always from skank,
with some great ideas for a FE continuation.
I’m from the mid engine only school of thought....,at least for the first few years.
The revolutionary change and wow factor will keep volumes sky high ,for at least 3 years ...
The factory will run at full capacity.
This revolutionary change will permit the C8 to hike its price by almost 20% ,versus the outgoing 2019 C7 model.
From a business perspective,
that would be an outstanding achievement and the envy of the auto industry.
To raise a products price by 20% ,and get away with it...
is a really big deal.
After 3 to 4 years ,if the fizzle runs out,
maybe bring the FE platform out for a model specific only Grand sport or ZR1.
IF we have a front-engined Corvette after 2021 model year, which IMO will be greatly determined on how “sales successful” the ME is, it will have the following changes:
If there's going to be a model year 2022 front engine C8, then that car is already in development. They start these programs 3-5 years before the car is introduced to the public. The model mix and pricing may be influenced by the mid engine car and the market in general, but the business case for it's existence would have been made before the program was given the green light.
IF we have a front-engined Corvette after 2021 model year, which IMO will be greatly determined on how “sales successful” the ME is, it will have the following changes:
1) AEB (automatic emergency braking) as that will be required by Fed rules at that time;
2) BSP (blind spot protection), which is already in many $20,000 vehicles, desired by many, and as the insurance data comes in, may additionally be insurance rate “encouraged”;
3) New front and rear fascias;
4) New hood;
5) Changed front-fender duct visual design;
6) A few interior visual upgrades so it “looks newer;
7) Perhaps components of the ME’s revised dash (again so it looks newer);
8) Has a standard 500 HP ME LT1 motor (though its model designation could be different);
9) Minor suspension upgrades based on years of additional “learning”;
10) Revised emblems to reflect it will be the C8.
Good list and I would add to #5:
5a) A completely new front fender also removing the flats on the top. Too signature for the current C7 not be revised off.
Nice well written thread ,like always from skank,
with some great ideas for a FE continuation.
I’m from the mid engine only school of thought....,at least for the first few years.
The revolutionary change and wow factor will keep volumes sky high ,for at least 3 years ...
The factory will run at full capacity.
This revolutionary change will permit the C8 to hike its price by almost 20% ,versus the outgoing 2019 C7 model.
From a business perspective,
that would be an outstanding achievement and the envy of the auto industry.
To raise a products price by 20% ,and get away with it...
is a really big deal.
After 3 to 4 years ,if the fizzle runs out,
maybe bring the FE platform out for a model specific only Grand sport or ZR1.
A 20% bump in price is huge.
For that kind of additional money the car will need to have a vast upgrad in interior quality from materials to fit and finish. Just look at the difference between the current C7 and the 911.
The car needs to be more exclusive to justify a 20% bump in price. Currently there are too many produced resulting in very high depreciation over the first 5 years of ownership compared to its competitors. Of course all this volume is what helps keep the price down.
I also think that while the C7 is a great performance car it still lacks being as refined as some of it’s more expensive competitors. It needs to be a better daily driver while continuing to perform like it does.
IMO if these things can be addressed buyers would line up to buy them even with the 20% increase.
IF we have a front-engined Corvette after 2021 model year, which IMO will be greatly determined on how “sales successful” the ME is:
This is the only part of the statement, that I feel is misplaced. The survival of the front engine car does not rely on the mid-engine. The mid-engine is only surfacing because 5 yrs of Stingray sales have allowed that push forward. The next front engine car at 55k, out the dealer door, will shore up the ME even further.
The Midengine Corvette, the ZR1, etc, were all evolutions of the fact the C7, as a base front engine platform, has sold well enough and has projections high enough to allow expansion/investment by GM. The Midengines existence sits upon the shoulders of the Front Engine cars established base.
Think: ACR sales couldn't keep the viper alive, it's base needed to do that, and there was little to no base. The meat and potatoes of the Corvette brand is Stingray, look at the production numbers (see bottom). The "base" is Stingray then gets heavily shored up by the GS. The Z06 and GS combine to outsell the Stingray using a shared investment with body/brakes/etc, but utilizing the core architecture of Stingray. These combined sales then allowed ZR1 and potentially one more naturally aspirated track focused car to come. The more you use the parts bin to create new, exciting models, the bigger the profit margin becomes....ask Porsche.
You take away the front-engine car, you deconstruct the entire thing which sells WELL and at a pricetag many, many can palette. You can get in a well equipped Stingray or GS for 55k-65k out the door after markdowns.
The mid-engine is BUILT upon the core architecture of the C7 platform, using much of the core chassis. The front engine/mid engine variation is possible, due to the modular design of the core. The "C7" is essentially a platform that was designed starting at the firewall, then ending toward the rear of the passenger compartment. From there, "front engine, rwd" architecture and body was designed into it. The Mid-engine starts with that same core, then from there, "mid-engine, rwd" and body, is designed into it, making the upcoming car. C8 Front engine, rwd will follow, doing the same...in a cycle.
GM will not walk away from the under 60k, out the door, price of entry...it would be suicide, it would reduce the base foundation ownership size and create a huge gap in the used market.
People need to get away from thinking "mid engine" versus "front engine" because they are not individual entities, they are alterations of the core Corvette platform...same as Z06 to Stingray, just slightly more evolved and complex.
2017 production numbers
Stingray Coupe 11,253 34.30%
Stingray Convertible 2,298 7.00%
Grand Sport Coupe 9,912 30.20%
Grand Sport Convertible 2,046 6.20%
Z06 Coupe 6,197 18.90%
Z06 Convertible 1,076 3.30%
Totals: 32,782 100%
If there's going to be a model year 2022 front engine C8, then that car is already in development. They start these programs 3-5 years before the car is introduced to the public. The model mix and pricing may be influenced by the mid engine car and the market in general, but the business case for it's existence would have been made before the program was given the green light.
Definitely, the design of the front engine C8 is already finished and the car likely in full scale clay at this stage. As the ME car approaches production ready, the Corvette team will then focus energy to pre-production front engine cars and the performance variant of the mid engine car (likely already well developed, for the mostpart).
This is the only part of the statement, that I feel is misplaced. The survival of the front engine car does not rely on the mid-engine. The mid-engine is only surfacing because 5 yrs of Stingray sales have allowed that push forward. The next front engine car at 55k, out the dealer door, will shore up the ME even further.
The Midengine Corvette, the ZR1, etc, were all evolutions of the fact the C7, as a base front engine platform, has sold well enough and has projections high enough to allow expansion/investment by GM. The Midengines existence sits upon the shoulders of the Front Engine cars established base.
Think: ACR sales couldn't keep the viper alive, it's base needed to do that, and there was little to no base. The meat and potatoes of the Corvette brand is Stingray, look at the production numbers (see bottom). The "base" is Stingray then gets heavily shored up by the GS. The Z06 and GS combine to outsell the Stingray using a shared investment with body/brakes/etc, but utilizing the core architecture of Stingray. These combined sales then allowed ZR1 and potentially one more naturally aspirated track focused car to come. The more you use the parts bin to create new, exciting models, the bigger the profit margin becomes....ask Porsche.
You take away the front-engine car, you deconstruct the entire thing which sells WELL and at a pricetag many, many can palette. You can get in a well equipped Stingray or GS for 55k-65k out the door after markdowns.
The mid-engine is BUILT upon the core architecture of the C7 platform, using much of the core chassis. The front engine/mid engine variation is possible, due to the modular design of the core. The "C7" is essentially a platform that was designed starting at the firewall, then ending toward the rear of the passenger compartment. From there, "front engine, rwd" architecture and body was designed into it. The Mid-engine starts with that same core, then from there, "mid-engine, rwd" and body, is designed into it, making the upcoming car. C8 Front engine, rwd will follow, doing the same...in a cycle.
GM will not walk away from the under 60k, out the door, price of entry...it would be suicide, it would reduce the base foundation ownership size and create a huge gap in the used market.
People need to get away from thinking "mid engine" versus "front engine" because they are not individual entities, they are alterations of the core Corvette platform...same as Z06 to Stingray, just slightly more evolved and complex.
2017 production numbers
Stingray Coupe 11,253 34.30%
Stingray Convertible 2,298 7.00%
Grand Sport Coupe 9,912 30.20%
Grand Sport Convertible 2,046 6.20%
Z06 Coupe 6,197 18.90%
Z06 Convertible 1,076 3.30%
Totals: 32,782 100%
Absolutely. This is exactly why I think there's going to be two cars. The mid engine will fit into the market niche where the Z06 and ZR1 are now. There will be some overlap in the highest model C8 and lowest model ME, but other than that they'll occupy two different market segments. There won't be another front engine ZR1 type of car. The Z06 will probably get scaled back, if not outright cancelled.
Good points gentlemen, that it is very probable that the next front engined Corvette is already fully designed. Thank you.
However, a design completion does not automatically mean that consequent production execution would be forthcoming.
I understand the love of Corvette front engined cars. We have a C7 Z06 and LOVE our car. It is gorgeous and exciting, a great curvy corner carver as well as a fantastic road tripper, a wonderful around town driver — and so much more.
However, all that does not guarantee that we will have a front engined Corvette forever down the road. Even if we got a petition and had it signed by the roughly 1,500,000 current owners of front-engined Corvettes, that does not mean the FE would indefinitely continue.
I sure have no inside knowledge that the FE is being discontinued. Might, conversely GM have already concluded that at least for the five plus years that we will have both FE and ME’s every year? For sure that is possible.
However, do we not think GM is discussing lots of things about the future of the Corvette brand and that they too have not made all their decisions yet?
The sports car world is changing, and GM is properly looking at many options, and one of those is also possible, that when 2021 ends, so would have all FE Corvettes.
I sure do not know, do not believe anyone on this forum now knows, and why, because I believe that GM does not yet know.
I say, just think about this reference from history.
1. This is the earliest C7 in clay (behind, on the wall, is the newly released livery and photo array of the ZR1 homologated car...i.e. this was 2009). As a little moment...check the Camaro up on the wall...definitely looks like a mid-engine based drawing but...who knows.
2. This is within the same year as the photo above. Note, there are ZR1 (c6) early design wheels and you can see the width of the rear tires. This means, from the onset it was planned for C7 base/Z06. You can see they hadn't even committed to the rear hatch design yet, but were already planning wider fender vents, etc. So, the earliest C7 Z06 was being thought about, 5 yrs before it hit show rooms.
Last edited by KnightDriveTV; 06-18-2018 at 04:29 PM.
Keep in mind, this leak of CAD came before the Stingray was released...it was clearly the Z06. Meaning, the entire CAD was likely complete in 2012 on the Z06, if not earlier.
Last edited by KnightDriveTV; 06-18-2018 at 04:31 PM.
The infamous Jalopnik leak of the C7 came in Nov 2011. A full 2 years before the car was shown to the public. It had elements of the Z06 as well, which was still 3 years out at that point.
This is the only part of the statement, that I feel is misplaced. The survival of the front engine car does not rely on the mid-engine. The mid-engine is only surfacing because 5 yrs of Stingray sales have allowed that push forward. The next front engine car at 55k, out the dealer door, will shore up the ME even further.
The Midengine Corvette, the ZR1, etc, were all evolutions of the fact the C7, as a base front engine platform, has sold well enough and has projections high enough to allow expansion/investment by GM. The Midengines existence sits upon the shoulders of the Front Engine cars established base.
Think: ACR sales couldn't keep the viper alive, it's base needed to do that, and there was little to no base. The meat and potatoes of the Corvette brand is Stingray, look at the production numbers (see bottom). The "base" is Stingray then gets heavily shored up by the GS. The Z06 and GS combine to outsell the Stingray using a shared investment with body/brakes/etc, but utilizing the core architecture of Stingray. These combined sales then allowed ZR1 and potentially one more naturally aspirated track focused car to come. The more you use the parts bin to create new, exciting models, the bigger the profit margin becomes....ask Porsche.
You take away the front-engine car, you deconstruct the entire thing which sells WELL and at a pricetag many, many can palette. You can get in a well equipped Stingray or GS for 55k-65k out the door after markdowns.
The mid-engine is BUILT upon the core architecture of the C7 platform, using much of the core chassis. The front engine/mid engine variation is possible, due to the modular design of the core. The "C7" is essentially a platform that was designed starting at the firewall, then ending toward the rear of the passenger compartment. From there, "front engine, rwd" architecture and body was designed into it. The Mid-engine starts with that same core, then from there, "mid-engine, rwd" and body, is designed into it, making the upcoming car. C8 Front engine, rwd will follow, doing the same...in a cycle.
GM will not walk away from the under 60k, out the door, price of entry...it would be suicide, it would reduce the base foundation ownership size and create a huge gap in the used market.
People need to get away from thinking "mid engine" versus "front engine" because they are not individual entities, they are alterations of the core Corvette platform...same as Z06 to Stingray, just slightly more evolved and complex.
2017 production numbers
Stingray Coupe 11,253 34.30%
Stingray Convertible 2,298 7.00%
Grand Sport Coupe 9,912 30.20%
Grand Sport Convertible 2,046 6.20%
Z06 Coupe 6,197 18.90%
Z06 Convertible 1,076 3.30%
Totals: 32,782 100%
I agree with everything here but if a ME and a FE are produced at the same time as C8’s, this creates a real dilemma for how these cars will be marketed. Which one is a real Corvette? Porsche has the boxster, the cayman and 911 and sub models of each. They aren’t all 911’s!
Is it possible that after a period of time the FE Corvette is discontinued and replaced by a ME Camaro or other yet to be named car that utilizes a considerable amount of Corvette ME components?
I don't think it's a dilemma really, it simply comes down to pricing, demographics and mode of use.
Performance/Cost trickle:
Highest to lowest performance/cost
150k-175k Top price, top performer**Future mid engine performance variants possible** "Zora Edition"
130k-155k Mid Engine performance model, exceeds or equals ZR1 (one step above base MR car)
120k-140k Exceeds overall performance of Mid Engine base, costs slightly more, manual gearbox option - C7 ZR1
100-130k N/A TrackPack Z06 we've seen spy photos of, almost beats ZR1 but Naturally aspirated purist car
85-130k Mid Engine base model exceeds performance of Z06 but falls short of ZR1, base costs what well equipped Z06 costs, creates buyer dilemma.
80K-105k Z06 and on down as it currently stands.
and so on.
Total Corvette bandwidth is 55k'ish to 150k'ish, out the door.
MidEngine car
Higher ultimate performance aside from upper end front engine models, higher cost of ownership/maintenance, more exotic, pulls younger demo, cost of entry into the "world of Corvette" higher, dual clutch transmission
Front Engine car
Aimed at Grand Touring, better ingress/egress, more storage, serves the masses who love tradition and the long standing platform. Doesn't want to spend 100k on a car, but wants a nice weekend vert, or supercharged car, etc.
Front engine still has its place as a track day car that's more affordable, maintains manual gearbox as a draw to the purists.
Last edited by KnightDriveTV; 06-18-2018 at 05:55 PM.
The infamous Jalopnik leak of the C7 came in Nov 2011. A full 2 years before the car was shown to the public. It had elements of the Z06 as well, which was still 3 years out at that point.
The mid-engine is BUILT upon the core architecture of the C7 platform, using much of the core chassis. The front engine/mid engine variation is possible, due to the modular design of the core. The "C7" is essentially a platform that was designed starting at the firewall, then ending toward the rear of the passenger compartment. From there, "front engine, rwd" architecture and body was designed into it. The Mid-engine starts with that same core, then from there, "mid-engine, rwd" and body, is designed into it, making the upcoming car. C8 Front engine, rwd will follow, doing the same...in a cycle.
People need to get away from thinking "mid engine" versus "front engine" because they are not individual entities, they are alterations of the core Corvette platform...same as Z06 to Stingray, just slightly more evolved and complex.
More unbelievable fake news. Shocking. Refer to previous posts of mine that describe the new technologies in the C8 chassis. See if you can answer some of the questions I asked SKANK. I am a chassis engineer and I keep abreast with the latest technologies and materials.
There is not much legacy in the CAD system from the C7 to the C8 as there was between the C5 and the C7.
There some, but the C8 chassis is the state of the art for high production low cost manufacturing. Much of the chassis construction and materials has never been done before in a car. The technology transfer will surely apply to the FE C9. You could refer to this chassis as modular. GM is the very best at this through out history. GM Diesels, Allyson engines and trannies, etc. It is easy to swap thing around and change the scale, IE: a entry level Vette like a Solstice size with a 300hp I4T. Watch for liberal use of Magnesium even for engine crank cases.
Show me the similarities of the C7's 'Modular Core Chassis'. There is enough information below for you to answer my question. Unfortunately, that would require a lot more knowledge than you have.
Wait a moment, perhaps someone here can assist you.
Oh, it is not a space frame that some other genius has suggested.
Nice well written thread ,like always from skank,
with some great ideas for a FE continuation.
I’m from the mid engine only school of thought....,at least for the first few years.
The revolutionary change and wow factor will keep volumes sky high ,for at least 3 years ...
The factory will run at full capacity.
This revolutionary change will permit the C8 to hike its price by almost 20% ,versus the outgoing 2019 C7 model.
From a business perspective,
that would be an outstanding achievement and the envy of the auto industry.
To raise a products price by 20% ,and get away with it...
is a really big deal.
After 3 to 4 years ,if the fizzle runs out,
maybe bring the FE platform out for a model specific only Grand sport or ZR1.
I agree. Plus GM themselves have been playing with the idea of an ME for a long time. Some recently re-discovered photographs show it’s been on their minds since 1959. The sports car market is shrinking with many exclusive brands creating high performance SUV’s to survive. Porsche sells more SUV’s than sports cars. I think the new ME will be a more technologically advanced car at a higher price point to make up for the lower production. This puts GM in a good spot verses selling their FE/ C7”s with large rebates, great for the buyers not for the manufacturer. In the end time will tell.
I don't think it's a dilemma really, it simply comes down to pricing, demographics and mode of use.
Performance/Cost trickle:
Highest to lowest performance/cost
150k-175k Top price, top performer**Future mid engine performance variants possible** "Zora Edition"
130k-155k Mid Engine performance model, exceeds or equals ZR1 (one step above base MR car)
120k-140k Exceeds overall performance of Mid Engine base, costs slightly more, manual gearbox option - C7 ZR1
100-130k N/A TrackPack Z06 we've seen spy photos of, almost beats ZR1 but Naturally aspirated purist car
85-130k Mid Engine base model exceeds performance of Z06 but falls short of ZR1, base costs what well equipped Z06 costs, creates buyer dilemma.
80K-105k Z06 and on down as it currently stands.
and so on.
Total Corvette bandwidth is 55k'ish to 150k'ish, out the door.
MidEngine car
Higher ultimate performance aside from upper end front engine models, higher cost of ownership/maintenance, more exotic, pulls younger demo, cost of entry into the "world of Corvette" higher, dual clutch transmission
Front Engine car
Aimed at Grand Touring, better ingress/egress, more storage, serves the masses who love tradition and the long standing platform. Doesn't want to spend 100k on a car, but wants a nice weekend vert, or supercharged car, etc.
Front engine still has its place as a track day car that's more affordable, maintains manual gearbox as a draw to the purists.
I think the only way that this happens is if the car is rebranded. It can’t be a “Chevrolet Corvette”. Maybe The brand name is simply Corvette with Zora at the high end as ME and Stingray at the low end as a FE. But I don’t know many people that are going to pay $150k to $175k for a Chevrolet! (I actually don’t think the ME will get to that kinda a price). You certainly aren’t going to get a lot of Porsche, Ferrari or Lombo buyers to pay that kind of money for a Chevrolet!
06-18-2018, 11:46 AM
What will the C8 Front Engine Generation Corvette entail ?
