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Manual a thing of the past?

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Old 07-12-2018, 10:54 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by ByByBMW View Post
Luckily, your opinion doesn't matter to me in the least. I do understand the skill it takes since I have owned clutch pedal cars, including a 2008 Z06. I did enjoy the skill that I had to use to shift that car to get the most out of it. But as I age, and the body rebels, I found I can get just as much pleasure "toggling flappy paddles" and guess what, I'm still getting just as much thrill as I did with the three pedal cars. Maybe even more as I enjoy the times I don't HAVE to utilize that skill. Times like driving the 405 freeway in S. CA. for example. Lastly, I am not practicing to be a superior race car driver, rather I just enjoy driving high performance cars at a level I am comfortable with. I have found with age that there are a number of "skills" that I don't need, or want, anymore. Manual shifting has dropped off my radar as a fun way to drive MY cars.
Sadly mistaken? That's just your opinion. You are sadly mistaken if you think that shifting an H-paddle shifter makes you a better driver, or makes it more rewarding, than folks who don't care about them anymore.
The statement that it takes more skill to drive a manual is not an opinion, it is a fact. The automatic transmission allows less skilled drivers to participate when they otherwise would have been an also ran. Congrats, I see a self-driving car in your future.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:31 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Turbo-Geist View Post
I see a self-driving car in your future.
Only if I am forced into one. But I don't foresee that for me in my lifetime.


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Old 07-12-2018, 02:31 PM
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There is always the factor that one can "drive" a manual, and then one can truly "utilize" a manual. If you can drive point a to point b, maybe do a little quick shift or power shift under acceleration, you can drive a manual. If you can match rev downshift, heel-toe at the threshold, left foot brake, clutch kick...then you can truly "utilize" a manual. That said, newer automatics are quite tempting, especially if you develop your left foot braking ability on track. You can accelerate deeper into the corner because you remove the transition time, plus you can run the tire closer to the edge of adhesion by being two hand precise.

I think it's clear that removing the manual gear lever and third pedal is FASTER, but if you can truly drive and fully utilize a manual gearbox, you put yourself in a very small category.
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Old 07-12-2018, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by zrc3john View Post
Im hearing the C8 will only be offered in automatic......How true is this? I'm guessing it will be more accepted if its only paddle shifters...
Not like the present auto set up where you see the shift column of P R N D.......To me there is def something wrong when I see a Z06 or a ZR1 and you see P R N D.......Sacrilege......That's just me....

i rarely even use the auto paddles
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:25 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by ByByBMW View Post
What you don't seem to grasp is that nowhere did I say, or even infer, that an auto takes more/less skill to operate. Skill at operating a manual was acknowledged. It's just not my preference at this stage of my life.
Originally Posted by ByByBMW View Post
...It's no different than the three pedal car, it's just done a different way.
You are now moving the goal posts of the conversation. The above quote is where you mentioned that a PDK is no different than driving a car with a manual transmission. All that time driving the PDK is beginning to sink in. You've even started believing it is a true manual and that your skills are the same and haven't diminished.
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:35 PM
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I have owned, driven and raced Corvettes for over 40 years, and I have always specified a manual transmission. I could not even imagine enjoying a Corvette with an automatic transmission.

I was wrong.

My C7 is an absolute delight with the automatic. And yes, if you really want to get the most out of it, there is still a learning curve. There will always be those who will cling to their manuals - I was one of them for decades - but it's time to acknowledge progress and product development. The "state of the art" has moved on. Time to move with it. Just my opinion, of course - but it's an informed opinion.
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by K.I.T.T.
There is always the factor that one can "drive" a manual, and then one can truly "utilize" a manual. If you can drive point a to point b, maybe do a little quick shift or power shift under acceleration, you can drive a manual. If you can match rev downshift, heel-toe at the threshold, left foot brake, clutch kick...then you can truly "utilize" a manual. That said, newer automatics are quite tempting, especially if you develop your left foot braking ability on track. You can accelerate deeper into the corner because you remove the transition time, plus you can run the tire closer to the edge of adhesion by being two hand precise.

I think it's clear that removing the manual gear lever and third pedal is FASTER, but if you can truly drive and fully utilize a manual gearbox, you put yourself in a very small category.
I drive a manual well but I am not a world class manual driver. I know I would be faster around a road course with an auto. But I do not want one as 99.9% of the time I street drive my car and I would then be overly bored. It is enjoyable to drive a manual on the street without getting stupid with speed and causing danger. I do not get this same enjoyment with an auto. My car is a daily driver.
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Old 07-12-2018, 06:10 PM
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I have to add another issue I have with a manual, and I am narrowing this down to Corvette manuals for a reason. The manual transmission in my Z06 was the absolute worst manual I ever owned. I have been driving over 50 years and never had ANY issues with the other manual cars I owned other than needing a new clutch itself on occasion. In the C6, if you didn't do constant flushes your clutch fluid would turn black (contaminants entering the system) in a short time. Never had that problem in any other car. My Z06 clutch would sometimes hang on the floor especially during hot pedal to the metal acceleration runs, think drag strip. Again, never had this problem in ANY other car.
Since I haven't owned or even driven a C7 I can't comment on them. But the C6 manual tranny left a huge bad taste in my mouth.

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Old 07-12-2018, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ByByBMW
I have to add another issue I have with a manual, and I am narrowing this down to Corvette manuals for a reason. The manual transmission in my Z06 was the absolute worst manual I ever owned. I have been driving over 50 years and never had ANY issues with the other manual cars I owned other than needing a new clutch itself on occasion. In the C6, if you didn't do constant flushes your clutch fluid would turn black (contaminants entering the system) in a short time. Never had that problem in any other car. My Z06 clutch would sometimes hang on the floor especially during hot pedal to the metal acceleration runs, think drag strip. Again, never had this problem in ANY other car.
Since I haven't owned or even driven a C7 I can't comment on them. But the C6 manual tranny left a huge bad taste in my mouth.
My car is nearing 10 years old. No clutch issues. I change my clutch fluid every 3 years
Along with the brake fluid. They should both actually be every 2 years but this is working for me.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:30 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by Turbo-Geist View Post
The statement that it takes more skill to drive a manual is not an opinion, it is a fact. The automatic transmission allows less skilled drivers to participate when they otherwise would have been an also ran. Congrats, I see a self-driving car in your future.

FACT you made up.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:48 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Turbo-Geist View Post
The statement that it takes more skill to drive a manual is not an opinion, it is a fact. The automatic transmission allows less skilled drivers to participate when they otherwise would have been an also ran. Congrats, I see a self-driving car in your future.
You are over rating the skill required for a MT... it really isn't hard to master and once someone does, it's second nature and doesn't require much more thinking than a DCT. I say this having spent hundreds of hours on a track in cars with both transmissions.

"Driving skill" and "operating a clutch pedal" are not necessarily correlated. A driver's ability to manage grip, contact patch, weight balance, limit braking, throttle management, etc has nothing to do with their ability to use a clutch. Some of the MOST skilled drivers you will find at a track day will be in a DCT. Your conclusion that only skilled drivers can operate a manual is not accurate. Nor does the ability to operate a manual mean you are a particularly skilled driver.

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Old 07-13-2018, 01:54 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by Turbo-Geist View Post
They chose to have the car shift for them because they couldn't handle shifting duties and wanted to participate. Then, they realized the trans couldn't even shift as fast as a skilled driver with a manual transmission. Automatic trans owners are just early adopters of self-driving cars.

NONSENSE........ While a fully automatic C6 upshifts extremely well for what it is.... In AUTO or PADDLE mode, and fantastically better after I've tuned it up....

Don't think that you or any real professional "DRIVER / "SHIFTER" can out SHIFT a C7 with a proper tune.... IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

And that is why GM isn't going to make a stick any more..... Now-a-days.... You CAN'T out do the computer and for those of you who think you're AMAZING

stick shifters.... All you're doing is grinding and breaking 100 year old technology synchronized manual transmissions into bits so your car can come off the

road sooner to have major repairs made......Again, REGARDLESS of how good of a "shifter" you think you are..... the antiquated synchros are like aggressive

race brake pads destroying your rotors with every touch of the pedal..... While the new Automatics will last way longer, shift faster, and win more races.....

That's why there will be not more sticks.... it's 100+ year old silly stuff.

NOW, I wouldn't want an AUTOMATIC C2 or C3 Corvette..... but again, the automatics are sooo far advanced now you're insane no to have one.

You can't even buy a stick shift truck any more either..... cause they fall apart prematurely..... OLD SCHOOL STUFF.....

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Old 07-14-2018, 02:26 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Mcrider View Post
FACT you made up.
That's very difficult putting the auto in "D".
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by vetteman41960 View Post
With the 458 under braking you can pull the downshift paddle and it will continue to down shift until you reach the desired gear.

The downshift are lighting quick so anything you chose to do with a manual you can do faster with a DCT.

Have you every driven a DCT in a high performance sports car like Ferrari Lamborghini or Maclaren?
You failed to achieve the desired goal. The desired goal was to take the car out of 6th gear, brake for the turn while the car remains out of gear, then drop it into 2nd at the proper moment in the turn.

Yes, I have driven and owned a DCT, I prefer the manual. I like to pull away from a stop sign, run the car up to Redline, then shift into top gear without using any other gears.

I know the DCT gear shifts are faster, sometimes one wants to take a few seconds between gear engagements. Nor do I care about ultimate track speed, it has a lot more to do with being involved with the car, and the driver being made to excise control over the car. Nor do I particularly like the car blipping the engine on down shifts, take the car out of gear, brake to a stop, engage 1st gear about 3 feet before stopping and be ready to go when the light changes. No blipping avoids constabulary observations.
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Old 07-15-2018, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by gthal View Post
You are over rating the skill required for a MT... it really isn't hard to master and once someone does, it's second nature and doesn't require much more thinking than a DCT. I say this having spent hundreds of hours on a track in cars with both transmissions.

"Driving skill" and "operating a clutch pedal" are not necessarily correlated. A driver's ability to manage grip, contact patch, weight balance, limit braking, throttle management, etc has nothing to do with their ability to use a clutch. Some of the MOST skilled drivers you will find at a track day will be in a DCT. Your conclusion that only skilled drivers can operate a manual is not accurate. Nor does the ability to operate a manual mean you are a particularly skilled driver.
Not to be disrespectful, but getting every shift right in a manual is a skill that is beyond difficult to master, I would say it is near impossible in very high pressure situations. Prior to the advent of auto mated manual shifting in F1 many races were won when someone missed a shift in a race. Those mistakes in racing doing things that are second nature is what decided many races. Those were greatest drivers in the sport and they still made mistakes. All of the drivers aids in racing today are part of what makes it boring.

I don't race for a living. When I drive on a track, I want to know that the reason I was able to achieve the time I did, was in large part due to my driving, not the cars automated systems' driving. Not everybody is like that. Some just want the best time. I like the tactile interaction that a manual gives. I am old enough to remember the difference in feel between a car with mechanical secondaries and vacuum secondaries. Now you get the dead feel of the pedal with drive by wire.

Everyone is different in what is important to them in the car driving experience.
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Old 07-16-2018, 06:58 PM
  #76  
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I have bad news for DCT lovers. DCT will bite the dust only a day after the 3 pedal H pattern stick. Automakers now believe full electrification is the future with hybrid only a stopgap measure. It is already hard enough to have gear choice with DCT in a hybrid, and I suspect many hybrids will ditch it as well.

Believe it or not, DCT is in the same can as the stick - to be read as, it's going to be canned.

Originally Posted by Chuck CoW View Post
NONSENSE........ While a fully automatic C6 upshifts extremely well for what it is.... In AUTO or PADDLE mode, and fantastically better after I've tuned it up....

Don't think that you or any real professional "DRIVER / "SHIFTER" can out SHIFT a C7 with a proper tune.... IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

And that is why GM isn't going to make a stick any more..... Now-a-days.... You CAN'T out do the computer and for those of you who think you're AMAZING

stick shifters.... All you're doing is grinding and breaking 100 year old technology synchronized manual transmissions into bits so your car can come off the

road sooner to have major repairs made......Again, REGARDLESS of how good of a "shifter" you think you are..... the antiquated synchros are like aggressive

race brake pads destroying your rotors with every touch of the pedal..... While the new Automatics will last way longer, shift faster, and win more races.....

That's why there will be not more sticks.... it's 100+ year old silly stuff.

NOW, I wouldn't want an AUTOMATIC C2 or C3 Corvette..... but again, the automatics are sooo far advanced now you're insane no to have one.

You can't even buy a stick shift truck any more either..... cause they fall apart prematurely..... OLD SCHOOL STUFF.....

Chuck CoW
The other thing that's going to bite the dust with the "OLD SCHOOL" stick, is going to be tuning. Tuning is going to be "100+ year old silly stuff" with fully electric cars.

Last edited by SBC_and_a_stick; 07-16-2018 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 07-16-2018, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by SBC_and_a_stick View Post
I have bad news for DCT lovers. DCT will bite the dust only a day after the 3 pedal H pattern stick. Automakers now believe full electrification is the future with hybrid only a stopgap measure. It is already hard enough to have gear choice with DCT in a hybrid, and I suspect many hybrids will ditch it as well.

Believe it or not, DCT is in the same can as the stick - to be read as, it's going to be canned.



The other thing that's going to bite the dust with the "OLD SCHOOL" stick, is going to be tuning. Tuning is going to be "100+ year old silly stuff" with fully electric cars.
Darn you Debby downer.

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Old 07-16-2018, 10:17 PM
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Got news for you, tuning will not 'go away' with electrics, there's always a better battery, more voltage, higher amperage, a different wind motor, changing the curve on the electronic speed control (ESC), tuning the drive-train for better traction, gear selection for the type of competition, buying lighter components, more efficient accessories to be able to use more of the available power for speed and duration, this is stuff I am already doing with my electric 'toys'.
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Old 07-17-2018, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by zrc3john View Post
Im hearing the C8 will only be offered in automatic......How true is this? I'm guessing it will be more accepted if its only paddle shifters...
Not like the present auto set up where you see the shift column of P R N D.......To me there is def something wrong when I see a Z06 or a ZR1 and you see P R N D.......Sacrilege......That's just me....
I highly doubt GM would kill the manual altogether. They are one of the few compaines that still makes some models only in manual.
Porsche tried to kill off the manual GT3 but there was a massive uproar and the manual is here to stay. I'd expect the exact same thing to happen if GM tries to kill off a manual vette.

people can say/prove an automatic is faster as much as they want but the fact is manual people just don't care and I for one will never drive an automatic sports car regardless of how much faster it is.

Last edited by ender2664; 07-17-2018 at 01:57 AM. Reason: Adding more
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Old 07-17-2018, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by SBC_and_a_stick View Post
I have bad news for DCT lovers. DCT will bite the dust only a day after the 3 pedal H pattern stick. Automakers now believe full electrification is the future with hybrid only a stopgap measure. It is already hard enough to have gear choice with DCT in a hybrid, and I suspect many hybrids will ditch it as well.

Believe it or not, DCT is in the same can as the stick - to be read as, it's going to be canned.



The other thing that's going to bite the dust with the "OLD SCHOOL" stick, is going to be tuning. Tuning is going to be "100+ year old silly stuff" with fully electric cars.
I would guess you never did slot cars as a kid, or RC Cars today. Tuning with electric cars is very possible with electric cars. People used to rewind the motors in slot cars to make them faster. In RC cars today, electric is the hot setup. There are many choices of replacement electric motors. Also controllers can be replaced to allow more voltage and amperage. Also the controller may control how quickly voltage/current is ramped up to control the violence of acceleration. That could also be "tuned".

All that said, I am not suggesting the Corvette will go all electric anytime soon.
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