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Question-Why would someone just not buy a Porsche?

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Old 12-14-2018, 10:50 AM
  #781  
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Originally Posted by C7pimp
I raced a 911 Turbo S in my 2007 Mustang GT supercharged (480 Whp/550 crank hp) from a roll and walked it hard with a manual transmission. They launch hard out of the hole (AWD) but after that they are slow as crap. A C6 Z06 will walk one from a roll.
Exactly - that's the difference between a car with real torque or one that's simply optimized for an artificial test.

Originally Posted by Dr. ice
D

Not disputing your claims since I know they have an excellent launch control system. I assume that only pertains to the Sport Chrono cars and I think that’s worth about .2 seconds on 0-60 times. Interesting though, the 911does a good job of holding that edge all the way through the quarter. Please share any roll times between the two in late model variations. Would be interesting to see. At the end of the day they are both quick. I believe my c7 also had launch control so maybe you have identified another area they need to catch up with their competition on.
918 shows why 0-60 times are BS

For years, we've measured how fast a car is by two metrics: top speed and 0-60 times. I will now point out that 0-60 times are bullshit, mostly because carmakers (using the Porsche 918 as an example) are gaming the system.This is something that just about everyone knows, since the number of times that regular human beings go from 0-60 is approximately never. Real speed is acceleration from when you are already rolling, like when you're merging onto a highway, or you're powering out of a turn on some backroad.

But this realization comes to me from Road and Track's published performance figures for the Porsche 918. The first figure they note is that the Porker (weighing something between 3,715 and 3,858 lbs depending on how you measure) rips from 0-60 as fast a a Bugatti Veyron. That's 2.5 seconds.

R&T go on to give the 918's 5-60 time, a figure that Porsche does not quote. It's 2.8 seconds. That's slower than the car's 0-60 time. How could this be?The answer is simple - carmakers these days are getting very, very good at launch control systems, which perfectly manage the engine's power and the tires' traction to give perfect 0-60 times, every time. Porsche's system, for instance,is so computer-optimized you can launch your car over 50 consecutive times, or while drinking a coke.The joke is that the car has specific programming to set it up to launch from 0-60 (or 0-100kph/62mph) for the sole purpose of grabbing headlines. The 918, when in a real world situation, like from a slow roll to a highway run, is actually slower than it is in 0-60 fantasy land. I'm singling out the 918 here, but as launch control systems get better and better, it seems like launch-control-optimized cars are getting more and more divorced from genuine on-road performance.Carmakers are gaming the system, and they're doing it just so that their cars appear faster in car magazines and Internet arguments. Drive them like a real human being and not some kind of standstill-to-speed-limit robot and you'll see how fast they really are.
Why zero to sixty times are overrated

Review if 911 Turbo showing 5-60 much slower than 0-60

0-60: 2.6 sec
5-60: 3.5 sec

Nuff said.

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Old 12-14-2018, 11:12 AM
  #782  
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I agree, what makes a car special to a particular buyer is much more than any one performance metric. I was simply restating to a nonbelieving reader that the 2017 911 C2S had been recorded with a 0-60 time of 3.1. I personally don’t care what technology allows that to happen.
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Old 12-14-2018, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr. ice
I agree, what makes a car special to a particular buyer is much more than any one performance metric. I was simply restating to a nonbelieving reader that the 2017 911 C2S had been recorded with a 0-60 time of 3.1. I personally don’t care what technology allows that to happen.
You also apparently don't care whether 0-60 is even a useful measure...
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Old 12-14-2018, 11:29 AM
  #784  
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Originally Posted by pdiddy972


You also apparently don't care whether 0-60 is even a useful measure...
It is a useful measure when taken into context with other performance metrics.
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Old 12-14-2018, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr. ice


It is a useful measure when taken into context with other performance metrics.
OK, since you were quick to produce 0-60 times for Porsches to prove they were superior, on what other metrics are they superior? Skidpad? I think Z06/ZR1/GS all best all 911s. Braking? The GS has the second best braking distance (the top two being two variations of Vipers). What else?

And related to your comment above a few posts that the 911 holds onto its edge through the quarter, well, yeah, that's to be expected when you let them use their hyper optimized 0-60 launch. Try a quarter mile race of one of those 911s from a 5 MPH roll against one of the Vettes and guess which will win (or at least not have their time suffer)?
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Old 12-14-2018, 12:01 PM
  #786  
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Originally Posted by pdiddy972


OK, since you were quick to produce 0-60 times for Porsches to prove they were superior, on what other metrics are they superior? Skidpad? I think Z06/ZR1/GS all best all 911s. Braking? The GS has the second best braking distance (the top two being two variations of Vipers). What else?

And related to your comment above a few posts that the 911 holds onto its edge through the quarter, well, yeah, that's to be expected when you let them use their hyper optimized 0-60 launch. Try a quarter mile race of one of those 911s from a 5 MPH roll against one of the Vettes and guess which will win (or at least not have their time suffer)?
calm down and don’t shoot the messanger��. I agree the C7 also excels in some areas as noted.


Last edited by Dr. ice; 12-14-2018 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 12-14-2018, 12:16 PM
  #787  
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Originally Posted by Dr. ice


i love your persistence but believe your energy could be better spent on topics you have perhaps a firmer grasp on. This is obviously not one of them.

Cheers!
Tired dismissiveness...
Ran out of "torque" I guess...
I'll echo your inconsequential suggestion by recommending some rest (especially from magazines) so you can come back refreshed with more educated opinions.


I'll be here. :-)
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Old 12-14-2018, 12:36 PM
  #788  
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Forget the Porsche, will go the BMW M5 instead ! M5 - 2.8 seconds you’re at 60 mph and in 10.9 you’re whisked through the quarter-mile at 129 mph. Those are stock numbers..
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Old 12-14-2018, 12:49 PM
  #789  
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Originally Posted by norge1956
Forget the Porsche, will go the BMW M5 instead ! M5 - 2.8 seconds you’re at 60 mph and in 10.9 you’re whisked through the quarter-mile at 129 mph. Those are stock numbers..
M5 has the same lack of torque problem the 911s have.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...m5-test-review

Zero to 60 mph: 2.8 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 3.7 sec

Vettes lose some from 5-60 too, but about half as bad as these.

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Old 12-14-2018, 12:57 PM
  #790  
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Dr. Ice says his 4S does 0-60 in 3.1 seconds...BECAUSE the internet says so...

I found what Porsche says the 2017 4S does (directly on Porsche's web site): https://cdn.dealereprocess.net/cdn/b...e/2017-911.pdf



0-60MPH (0-100KMH)

Only off by 35%....Who to believe?? Porsche or the 15 year old kid in the basement running 0-60 web site.. /sarc off

Tchuss
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Old 12-14-2018, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Telepierre
Dr. Ice says his 4S does 0-60 in 3.1 seconds...BECAUSE the internet says so...

I found what Porsche says the 2017 4S does (directly on Porsche's web site): https://cdn.dealereprocess.net/cdn/b...e/2017-911.pdf



0-60MPH (0-100KMH)

Only off by 35%....Who to believe?? Porsche or the 15 year old kid in the basement running 0-60 web site.. /sarc off

Tchuss
You may be unaware but Porsche has always been conservative wirh their 0-60 times. However, Porschs is now showing more accurate times with the introduction of the new 992. Class will resume after your next reply.

Last edited by Dr. ice; 12-14-2018 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 12-14-2018, 01:44 PM
  #792  
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Sounds like the mags test with rollout (which gets better 0-60 times) and Porsche doesn't.

https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/commen...hes_060_times/

FYI, the Tesla P100D tested with a 0.3sec rollout, which I believe had the fastest production 0-60 any magazine has ever tested. The P90D tested with a 0.4sec rollout. Most vehicles with an ICE will take around 0.5 - 0.7sec to travel 1 foot if you don't brake torque.Source: work in the industry.
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Old 12-14-2018, 02:21 PM
  #793  
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0 to 60 means nothing. Lap times around popular circuits are what matters to truly judge all-around performance of a sports car. Btw, the Z06 and Grand Sport both cost considerably less than the 911:





Source: http://www.zeperfs.com/en/match5537-6529-4150.htm

Last edited by ArmchairArchitect; 12-14-2018 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 12-14-2018, 02:38 PM
  #794  
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Originally Posted by ArmchairArchitect
0 to 60 means nothing. Lap times around popular circuits are what matters to truly judge performance of a sports car. Btw, the Z06 and Grand Sport both cost considerably less than the 911:





Source: http://www.zeperfs.com/en/match5537-6529-4150.htm
That article is referencing the 991.1 vs 991.2. Also, looks like the base 911.1. Big difference performance wise between a .1 and .2 car.

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Old 12-14-2018, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. ice


That article is referencing the 991.1 vs 991.2. Also, looks like the base 911.1. Big difference performance wise between a .1 and .2 car.

Apparently that "big difference" is still not enough... Numbers don't lie, here you go, just what you asked for:





http://www.zeperfs.com/en/match5537-6529-5956.htm

Last edited by ArmchairArchitect; 12-14-2018 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 12-14-2018, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ArmchairArchitect
Apparently that "big difference" is still not enough... Numbers don't lie, here you go, just what you asked for:




I know you guys are giving it your best shot, but the 3.1 time is with the 991.2 c2s, not the base car. Keep trying.
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Old 12-14-2018, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. ice



I know you guys are giving it your best shot, but the 3.1 time is with the 991.2 c2s, not the base car. Keep trying.
I'm talking about the best sports car under $100k (see my last post prior to these).
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Old 12-14-2018, 03:15 PM
  #798  
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Originally Posted by ArmchairArchitect
I'm talking about the best sports car under $100k (see my last post prior to these).
Gotcha! I would agree with results against the base 911. Hard to give up 100 plus HP and be on same performance field.
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Old 12-14-2018, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. ice


You may be unaware but Porsche has always been conservative wirh their 0-60 times. However, Porschs is now showing more accurate times with the introduction of the new 992. Class will resume after your next reply.
Yes…yes! I have been earing about the Porsche mythological underrating for ages and being an engineer with extensive experience in Stuttgart I thought it was stuff of unicorns and fairy tales not befitting the german precision engineering legacy but you are saying it is true!?!!Let’s help them then right here in the CF; compliance lawyers, performance engineers and spec writers and all! I bet you they are not AWARE of the possibilities here.. 35% “conservative”..let’s see

2017 911 4S:
Declared DIN measured power: 420 DIN 413 SAE Mythological “real” power: 567
Declared DIN measured dry weight: 3284 lbs SAE curb weight 3415 Mythological “real” weight: 2134lbs
Declared top speed: 188 MPH Mythological “real” top speed: 253MPHDeclared 0-60: 4.2 Mythological “real” 0-60 3.1 (thanks professor!! Awesome)

So here we have it doctor. THE REAL DEAL!!
A 2017 911 4s does 0-60 in 3.1 has 567 horsepower weights 2134 pounds and has a real top speed of 253.

Send the memo immediately, tell them to forget DIN 70020, SAE J2723 and the NHTSA guidelines on performance claims and share the information you have and I am unaware of!
Make sure the memo is signed Genie Mensch.

JUST IMAGINE the “real” numbers on the 911.2!!!! Now that the geniuses at Stuttgart have figured (in 2018) out how to measure performance parameters the right way....Just for a measly 4S we are talking 0-60 2.1 750HP feather weight of what!? Sub 2000 right!? TOP SPEED mhmm..about 400MPH just about right..

I suppose it is game over for the C8!!

Please remember to sign the memo...

Last edited by Telepierre; 12-14-2018 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 12-14-2018, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Telepierre
Yes…yes! I have been earing about the Porsche mythological underrating for ages and being an engineer with extensive experience in Stuttgart I thought it was stuff of unicorns and fairy tales not befitting the german precision engineering legacy but you are saying it is true!?!!Let’s help them then right here in the CF; compliance lawyers, performance engineers and spec writers and all! I bet you they are not AWARE of the possibilities here.. 35% “conservative”..let’s see

2017 911 4S:
Declared DIN measured power: 420 DIN 413 SAE Mythological “real” power: 567
Declared DIN measured dry weight: 3284 lbs SAE curb weight 3415 Mythological “real” weight: 2134lbs
Declared top speed: 188 MPH Mythological “real” top speed: 253MPHDeclared 0-60: 4.2 Mythological “real” 0-60 3.1 (thanks professor!! Awesome)

So here we have it doctor. THE REAL DEAL!!
A 2017 911 4s does 0-60 in 3.1 has 567 horsepower weights 2134 pounds and has a real top speed of 253.

Send the memo immediately, tell them to forget DIN 70020, SAE J2723 and the NHTSA guidelines on performance claims and share the information you have and I am unaware of!
Make sure the memo is signed Genie Mensch.

JUST IMAGINE the “real” numbers on the 911.2!!!! Now that the geniuses at Stuttgart have figured (in 2018) out how to measure performance parameters the right way....Just for a measly 4S we are talking 0-60 2.1 750HP feather weight of what!? Sub 2000 right!? TOP SPEED mhmm..about 400MPH just about right..

I suppose it is game over for the C8!!

Please remember to sign the memo...
Do you read the crap you write? You lost all credibility with me long ago and this is another instance of your complete loss of reality and sensibility. Your nutty *** remarks will no longer merit my response. You out did yourself on this one. Quite the drama queen! NICE!!!

cheers!


Last edited by Dr. ice; 12-14-2018 at 07:32 PM.
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