Question-Why would someone just not buy a Porsche?
#781
Race Director
D
Not disputing your claims since I know they have an excellent launch control system. I assume that only pertains to the Sport Chrono cars and I think that’s worth about .2 seconds on 0-60 times. Interesting though, the 911does a good job of holding that edge all the way through the quarter. Please share any roll times between the two in late model variations. Would be interesting to see. At the end of the day they are both quick. I believe my c7 also had launch control so maybe you have identified another area they need to catch up with their competition on.
Not disputing your claims since I know they have an excellent launch control system. I assume that only pertains to the Sport Chrono cars and I think that’s worth about .2 seconds on 0-60 times. Interesting though, the 911does a good job of holding that edge all the way through the quarter. Please share any roll times between the two in late model variations. Would be interesting to see. At the end of the day they are both quick. I believe my c7 also had launch control so maybe you have identified another area they need to catch up with their competition on.
For years, we've measured how fast a car is by two metrics: top speed and 0-60 times. I will now point out that 0-60 times are bullshit, mostly because carmakers (using the Porsche 918 as an example) are gaming the system.This is something that just about everyone knows, since the number of times that regular human beings go from 0-60 is approximately never. Real speed is acceleration from when you are already rolling, like when you're merging onto a highway, or you're powering out of a turn on some backroad.
But this realization comes to me from Road and Track's published performance figures for the Porsche 918. The first figure they note is that the Porker (weighing something between 3,715 and 3,858 lbs depending on how you measure) rips from 0-60 as fast a a Bugatti Veyron. That's 2.5 seconds.
R&T go on to give the 918's 5-60 time, a figure that Porsche does not quote. It's 2.8 seconds. That's slower than the car's 0-60 time. How could this be?The answer is simple - carmakers these days are getting very, very good at launch control systems, which perfectly manage the engine's power and the tires' traction to give perfect 0-60 times, every time. Porsche's system, for instance,is so computer-optimized you can launch your car over 50 consecutive times, or while drinking a coke.The joke is that the car has specific programming to set it up to launch from 0-60 (or 0-100kph/62mph) for the sole purpose of grabbing headlines. The 918, when in a real world situation, like from a slow roll to a highway run, is actually slower than it is in 0-60 fantasy land. I'm singling out the 918 here, but as launch control systems get better and better, it seems like launch-control-optimized cars are getting more and more divorced from genuine on-road performance.Carmakers are gaming the system, and they're doing it just so that their cars appear faster in car magazines and Internet arguments. Drive them like a real human being and not some kind of standstill-to-speed-limit robot and you'll see how fast they really are.
R&T go on to give the 918's 5-60 time, a figure that Porsche does not quote. It's 2.8 seconds. That's slower than the car's 0-60 time. How could this be?The answer is simple - carmakers these days are getting very, very good at launch control systems, which perfectly manage the engine's power and the tires' traction to give perfect 0-60 times, every time. Porsche's system, for instance,is so computer-optimized you can launch your car over 50 consecutive times, or while drinking a coke.The joke is that the car has specific programming to set it up to launch from 0-60 (or 0-100kph/62mph) for the sole purpose of grabbing headlines. The 918, when in a real world situation, like from a slow roll to a highway run, is actually slower than it is in 0-60 fantasy land. I'm singling out the 918 here, but as launch control systems get better and better, it seems like launch-control-optimized cars are getting more and more divorced from genuine on-road performance.Carmakers are gaming the system, and they're doing it just so that their cars appear faster in car magazines and Internet arguments. Drive them like a real human being and not some kind of standstill-to-speed-limit robot and you'll see how fast they really are.
Review if 911 Turbo showing 5-60 much slower than 0-60
0-60: 2.6 sec
5-60: 3.5 sec
Nuff said.
Last edited by pdiddy972; 12-14-2018 at 10:52 AM.
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ArmchairArchitect (12-14-2018)
#782
Melting Slicks
I agree, what makes a car special to a particular buyer is much more than any one performance metric. I was simply restating to a nonbelieving reader that the 2017 911 C2S had been recorded with a 0-60 time of 3.1. I personally don’t care what technology allows that to happen.
#783
Race Director
I agree, what makes a car special to a particular buyer is much more than any one performance metric. I was simply restating to a nonbelieving reader that the 2017 911 C2S had been recorded with a 0-60 time of 3.1. I personally don’t care what technology allows that to happen.
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ArmchairArchitect (12-14-2018)
#784
Melting Slicks
#785
Race Director
And related to your comment above a few posts that the 911 holds onto its edge through the quarter, well, yeah, that's to be expected when you let them use their hyper optimized 0-60 launch. Try a quarter mile race of one of those 911s from a 5 MPH roll against one of the Vettes and guess which will win (or at least not have their time suffer)?
#786
Melting Slicks
OK, since you were quick to produce 0-60 times for Porsches to prove they were superior, on what other metrics are they superior? Skidpad? I think Z06/ZR1/GS all best all 911s. Braking? The GS has the second best braking distance (the top two being two variations of Vipers). What else?
And related to your comment above a few posts that the 911 holds onto its edge through the quarter, well, yeah, that's to be expected when you let them use their hyper optimized 0-60 launch. Try a quarter mile race of one of those 911s from a 5 MPH roll against one of the Vettes and guess which will win (or at least not have their time suffer)?
Last edited by Dr. ice; 12-14-2018 at 12:02 PM.
#787
Ran out of "torque" I guess...
I'll echo your inconsequential suggestion by recommending some rest (especially from magazines) so you can come back refreshed with more educated opinions.
I'll be here. :-)
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ArmchairArchitect (12-14-2018)
#789
Race Director
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...m5-test-review
Zero to 60 mph: 2.8 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 3.7 sec
Vettes lose some from 5-60 too, but about half as bad as these.
Last edited by pdiddy972; 12-14-2018 at 12:56 PM.
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ArmchairArchitect (12-14-2018)
#790
Dr. Ice says his 4S does 0-60 in 3.1 seconds...BECAUSE the internet says so...
I found what Porsche says the 2017 4S does (directly on Porsche's web site): https://cdn.dealereprocess.net/cdn/b...e/2017-911.pdf
0-60MPH (0-100KMH)
Only off by 35%....Who to believe?? Porsche or the 15 year old kid in the basement running 0-60 web site.. /sarc off
Tchuss
I found what Porsche says the 2017 4S does (directly on Porsche's web site): https://cdn.dealereprocess.net/cdn/b...e/2017-911.pdf
0-60MPH (0-100KMH)
Only off by 35%....Who to believe?? Porsche or the 15 year old kid in the basement running 0-60 web site.. /sarc off
Tchuss
#791
Melting Slicks
Dr. Ice says his 4S does 0-60 in 3.1 seconds...BECAUSE the internet says so...
I found what Porsche says the 2017 4S does (directly on Porsche's web site): https://cdn.dealereprocess.net/cdn/b...e/2017-911.pdf
0-60MPH (0-100KMH)
Only off by 35%....Who to believe?? Porsche or the 15 year old kid in the basement running 0-60 web site.. /sarc off
Tchuss
I found what Porsche says the 2017 4S does (directly on Porsche's web site): https://cdn.dealereprocess.net/cdn/b...e/2017-911.pdf
0-60MPH (0-100KMH)
Only off by 35%....Who to believe?? Porsche or the 15 year old kid in the basement running 0-60 web site.. /sarc off
Tchuss
Last edited by Dr. ice; 12-14-2018 at 01:17 PM.
#792
Race Director
Sounds like the mags test with rollout (which gets better 0-60 times) and Porsche doesn't.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/commen...hes_060_times/
https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/commen...hes_060_times/
FYI, the Tesla P100D tested with a 0.3sec rollout, which I believe had the fastest production 0-60 any magazine has ever tested. The P90D tested with a 0.4sec rollout. Most vehicles with an ICE will take around 0.5 - 0.7sec to travel 1 foot if you don't brake torque.Source: work in the industry.
#793
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0 to 60 means nothing. Lap times around popular circuits are what matters to truly judge all-around performance of a sports car. Btw, the Z06 and Grand Sport both cost considerably less than the 911:
Source: http://www.zeperfs.com/en/match5537-6529-4150.htm
Source: http://www.zeperfs.com/en/match5537-6529-4150.htm
Last edited by ArmchairArchitect; 12-14-2018 at 02:37 PM.
#794
Melting Slicks
0 to 60 means nothing. Lap times around popular circuits are what matters to truly judge performance of a sports car. Btw, the Z06 and Grand Sport both cost considerably less than the 911:
Source: http://www.zeperfs.com/en/match5537-6529-4150.htm
Source: http://www.zeperfs.com/en/match5537-6529-4150.htm
Last edited by Dr. ice; 12-14-2018 at 02:38 PM.
#795
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http://www.zeperfs.com/en/match5537-6529-5956.htm
Last edited by ArmchairArchitect; 12-14-2018 at 02:55 PM.
#796
Melting Slicks
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#798
Melting Slicks
#799
2017 911 4S:
Declared DIN measured power: 420 DIN 413 SAE Mythological “real” power: 567
Declared DIN measured dry weight: 3284 lbs SAE curb weight 3415 Mythological “real” weight: 2134lbs
Declared top speed: 188 MPH Mythological “real” top speed: 253MPHDeclared 0-60: 4.2 Mythological “real” 0-60 3.1 (thanks professor!! Awesome)
So here we have it doctor. THE REAL DEAL!!
A 2017 911 4s does 0-60 in 3.1 has 567 horsepower weights 2134 pounds and has a real top speed of 253.
Send the memo immediately, tell them to forget DIN 70020, SAE J2723 and the NHTSA guidelines on performance claims and share the information you have and I am unaware of!
Make sure the memo is signed Genie Mensch.
JUST IMAGINE the “real” numbers on the 911.2!!!! Now that the geniuses at Stuttgart have figured (in 2018) out how to measure performance parameters the right way....Just for a measly 4S we are talking 0-60 2.1 750HP feather weight of what!? Sub 2000 right!? TOP SPEED mhmm..about 400MPH just about right..
I suppose it is game over for the C8!!
Please remember to sign the memo...
Last edited by Telepierre; 12-14-2018 at 07:08 PM.
#800
Melting Slicks
Yes…yes! I have been earing about the Porsche mythological underrating for ages and being an engineer with extensive experience in Stuttgart I thought it was stuff of unicorns and fairy tales not befitting the german precision engineering legacy but you are saying it is true!?!!Let’s help them then right here in the CF; compliance lawyers, performance engineers and spec writers and all! I bet you they are not AWARE of the possibilities here.. 35% “conservative”..let’s see
2017 911 4S:
Declared DIN measured power: 420 DIN 413 SAE Mythological “real” power: 567
Declared DIN measured dry weight: 3284 lbs SAE curb weight 3415 Mythological “real” weight: 2134lbs
Declared top speed: 188 MPH Mythological “real” top speed: 253MPHDeclared 0-60: 4.2 Mythological “real” 0-60 3.1 (thanks professor!! Awesome)
So here we have it doctor. THE REAL DEAL!!
A 2017 911 4s does 0-60 in 3.1 has 567 horsepower weights 2134 pounds and has a real top speed of 253.
Send the memo immediately, tell them to forget DIN 70020, SAE J2723 and the NHTSA guidelines on performance claims and share the information you have and I am unaware of!
Make sure the memo is signed Genie Mensch.
JUST IMAGINE the “real” numbers on the 911.2!!!! Now that the geniuses at Stuttgart have figured (in 2018) out how to measure performance parameters the right way....Just for a measly 4S we are talking 0-60 2.1 750HP feather weight of what!? Sub 2000 right!? TOP SPEED mhmm..about 400MPH just about right..
I suppose it is game over for the C8!!
Please remember to sign the memo...
2017 911 4S:
Declared DIN measured power: 420 DIN 413 SAE Mythological “real” power: 567
Declared DIN measured dry weight: 3284 lbs SAE curb weight 3415 Mythological “real” weight: 2134lbs
Declared top speed: 188 MPH Mythological “real” top speed: 253MPHDeclared 0-60: 4.2 Mythological “real” 0-60 3.1 (thanks professor!! Awesome)
So here we have it doctor. THE REAL DEAL!!
A 2017 911 4s does 0-60 in 3.1 has 567 horsepower weights 2134 pounds and has a real top speed of 253.
Send the memo immediately, tell them to forget DIN 70020, SAE J2723 and the NHTSA guidelines on performance claims and share the information you have and I am unaware of!
Make sure the memo is signed Genie Mensch.
JUST IMAGINE the “real” numbers on the 911.2!!!! Now that the geniuses at Stuttgart have figured (in 2018) out how to measure performance parameters the right way....Just for a measly 4S we are talking 0-60 2.1 750HP feather weight of what!? Sub 2000 right!? TOP SPEED mhmm..about 400MPH just about right..
I suppose it is game over for the C8!!
Please remember to sign the memo...
cheers!
Last edited by Dr. ice; 12-14-2018 at 07:32 PM.
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ByByBMW (12-14-2018)