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A lifeline to those who must have a manual?

Old 09-21-2018, 12:46 PM
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sunsalem
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Default A lifeline to those who must have a manual?

https://jalopnik.com/gm-s-new-patent...nua-1829177464

Maybe GM is trying to ya 'all a reason to believe....

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Old 09-21-2018, 12:49 PM
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Meh, nope. The hydraulics are the easy part. The difficult bit is the shift linkage.
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Old 09-21-2018, 12:55 PM
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If Porsche can offer manual in their 2 mid engine cars,so can Chevy.
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by RandomTask View Post
Meh, nope. The hydraulics are the easy part. The difficult bit is the shift linkage.
The patent has nothing to do with the gear linkage. This is basically just clutch-by-wire. Similar to how they moved to throttle-by-wire back in the early 2000s.

So it'd still be a traditional three-pedal manual. But instead of hydraulics for the clutch release bearing, there'd be an electronic pedal and an actuator in the bell housing.

So it's possible they could have some sort of partially automated low speed crawl mode for stop and go traffic or parking lot maneuvers. Drop the car in first or second and then drive it like an automatic up to a certain speed. You could also have a clutch pedal that's as light as a little 4 cylinder econobox, but on the other end would be a heavy duty clutch that's clamping on 800 ft-lbs of engine torque. Depending on how they set up the clutch pedal assembly itself, they might even be able to have pedal feel tied to the drive mode selector.

It'll be interesting to see what, if anything, GM does with this.
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Old 09-21-2018, 04:25 PM
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Old 09-21-2018, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by RandomTask View Post
Meh, nope. The hydraulics are the easy part. The difficult bit is the shift linkage.
You can do the shift linkage electronically, too::

a) take a shifter rod in a 7 gear selection assembly with 7 microswitches. THis enables the TCU to determine which gear the driver wants selected.
b) take the electronically controlled throwout bearing and cockpit potentiometer based clutch pedal. This enables the TCU to engage and disengage the clutch as directed by the drivers left foot.
c) the TCU does all of the decision making.

Senario, driver is cruising along on the interstate at speed limit, and takes exit road. Clutch goes in and driver selects first gear. As long as the clutch is in both DCT clutches are disengaged, the TCU preselects the driver chosen gear. When the driver releases the clutch pedal, teh TCU engages the appropriate DCT clutch for the chosen gear and the driver gets the sensation he is using a manual.
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Old 09-21-2018, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff V. View Post
The patent has nothing to do with the gear linkage. This is basically just clutch-by-wire. Similar to how they moved to throttle-by-wire back in the early 2000s.

So it'd still be a traditional three-pedal manual. But instead of hydraulics for the clutch release bearing, there'd be an electronic pedal and an actuator in the bell housing.

So it's possible they could have some sort of partially automated low speed crawl mode for stop and go traffic or parking lot maneuvers. Drop the car in first or second and then drive it like an automatic up to a certain speed. You could also have a clutch pedal that's as light as a little 4 cylinder econobox, but on the other end would be a heavy duty clutch that's clamping on 800 ft-lbs of engine torque. Depending on how they set up the clutch pedal assembly itself, they might even be able to have pedal feel tied to the drive mode selector.

It'll be interesting to see what, if anything, GM does with this.
I understand this. The hard part about putting a shifter in this layout of a vehicle is the shift linkage. It's stupid easy to run hydraulics/anything to activate the slave cylinder. Where you run into issues is on the shift linkage; a push pull cable bend radius is orders of magnitude larger than that of a hydraulic line; it's a lot harder to do.

The technology in the OP could be used for launch control on other vehicles. However, my point is it's not much of a life line if any; the real limited factor on putting a manual in the ME vette is the shift linkage.
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Old 09-21-2018, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by RandomTask View Post
I understand this. The hard part about putting a shifter in this layout of a vehicle is the shift linkage. It's stupid easy to run hydraulics/anything to activate the slave cylinder. Where you run into issues is on the shift linkage; a push pull cable bend radius is orders of magnitude larger than that of a hydraulic line; it's a lot harder to do.

The technology in the OP could be used for launch control on other vehicles. However, my point is it's not much of a life line if any; the real limited factor on putting a manual in the ME vette is the shift linkage.
Eh, I don't think it's that hard. The transmission has been in the back of the Corvette for over 20 years. Porsche and I think Aston Martin did it before that. The original Ford GT solved that problem in the 60s. There's been manual, mid-engine/rear transaxle cars for decades. It's a solved problem.

I really think this patent is addressed more to drivability and the tactile experience rather than any packaging issue. It might even have something to do with active fuel management. The manual C7s get a minor driveline shudder when the AFM kicks in. This might help mitigate that by briefly slipping the clutch.
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Old 09-22-2018, 12:28 AM
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Works for me. We have throttle by wire already. The feel of some GM clutches isn't that great anyway, so this could be an improvement. C8 needs a manual.
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Old 09-22-2018, 08:46 AM
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The patent info release is to calm the fears of no manual c8.

not that i want one but chances are there will be a manual c8
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Old 09-22-2018, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by JerriVette View Post
The patent info release is to calm the fears of no manual c8.

not that i want one but chances are there will be a manual c8
I can't see GM spending one dime on patents just to calm people's fears of there being no manual trans.
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Old 09-23-2018, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael A View Post
I can't see GM spending one dime on patents just to calm people's fears of there being no manual trans.
Neither do I...
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Old 09-23-2018, 10:05 AM
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"....as it could take away the mundane tasks of clutching in and out while in stop and go traffic while making it somewhat future-proof by bringing it into the network of modules that can be centrally controlled by one of the cars computers."

This reads to me as an automatic with clutch pedal, at least some of the time, especially if you don't have to be/do "clutching in and out" at some times. In cruder ways, it's been done before (like the VW in '67) and it can be done again and much improved. But a manual transmission? Hmm, requires a little stretch of definition if you ask me.
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Old 09-25-2018, 04:32 PM
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Back when BMW came out with the E60 M5 (SMG only) I test drove a car a company was working on that had a similar setup for the clutch and a gated shifter with force feedback. And you could still drive the car with the paddles and let the computer handle everything for you as well. So the combination of electric clutch and electric shifter is definitely a possibility. They stopped working on it when a year or so later BMW announced they were bringing a manual out (but not 7 speed like the SMG).
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Old 09-25-2018, 07:25 PM
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You know, the manual has another very important function, it's less money. A lot less money actually.

I have to admit as much as I enjoy shifting if the cost difference between a manual and an extremely effective DCT was $0, I'd probably have to buy the DCT.

I do enjoy the manuals better for sure, but I also like the mpg, lower weight, and substantially lower cost they provide.
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Old 09-25-2018, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
You know, the manual has another very important function, it's less money. A lot less money actually.

I have to admit as much as I enjoy shifting if the cost difference between a manual and an extremely effective DCT was $0, I'd probably have to buy the DCT.

I do enjoy the manuals better for sure, but I also like the mpg, lower weight, and substantially lower cost they provide.
No modern manual provides better gas mileage than its automatic counterpart. The reason, modern automatics have more gears with 8-12. A manual simply can't keep up with that. Though you could design a paddle shifter system with this many gears, that's a lot of shifting.
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Old 09-25-2018, 08:24 PM
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All you need is one gout attack (doesn't even matter which foot!) and you will thank your lucky stars you have an automatic transmission......lol
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Old 09-25-2018, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Atari_Prime View Post
No modern manual provides better gas mileage than its automatic counterpart..
I guess 16 city/25 hwy/19 combined doesn't beat 15 city/25 hwy/18 combined - because the first set are the EPA numbers for the 2019 C7 GS Coupe M7 and the second are for the A8. If we look at the Base Stingray, it is 17/29/21 (M7), 16/28/20 (A8). I guess maybe you are arguing that the C7's Tremac 7 speed isn't modern, or is the A8 not its automatic counterpart - although that is all GM puts in the C7.
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Old 09-25-2018, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
You know, the manual has another very important function, it's less money. A lot less money actually.

I have to admit as much as I enjoy shifting if the cost difference between a manual and an extremely effective DCT was $0, I'd probably have to buy the DCT.

I do enjoy the manuals better for sure, but I also like the mpg, lower weight, and substantially lower cost they provide.
I'm not sure what the price difference is between a DCT and a manual.
I would think it wouldn't factor into the equation of someone ready to plop down 70 large on a car.
If it is, then they really can't afford a new car.
Originally Posted by heavymetals View Post
All you need is one gout attack (doesn't even matter which foot!) and you will thank your lucky stars you have an automatic transmission......lol
Lesson of the Day: eat you veggies, kids.

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Old 09-26-2018, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by sunsalem View Post
I'm not sure what the price difference is between a DCT and a manual.
I would think it wouldn't factor into the equation of someone ready to plop down 70 large on a car.
If it is, then they really can't afford a new car.
Lesson of the Day: eat you veggies, kids.
I could write a check for $70k tomorrow without worrying about my account balance. But $4k is still $4k. I'll always be a value shopper, it's just my nature. About $4k is probably what the upcharge for the DCT will be.

To be clear, I genuinely prefer the manual. However, if I had to pay the same as a DCT for a manual, when I KNOW the DCT is going to make for a faster car, I'd be really torn. I mean I don't like forced induction either but I wouldn't turn it down for free.

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