When do you think we'll get official "word" from GM?
11-25-2018, 03:17 AM
#41
16 Vettes and counting…..
Corvette has been competing with Porsche its entire life. What would be the point of Corvette introducing its brand new model that is clearly inferior to the latest Porsche 911?
Does Corvette want all the media making the point that 911 will eat it for breakfast? Does Corvette want to lose badly every comparison shoot out? How does putting a guaranteed loser on the market sell cars?
Does Corvette want all the media making the point that 911 will eat it for breakfast? Does Corvette want to lose badly every comparison shoot out? How does putting a guaranteed loser on the market sell cars?
Apparently you want to see Corvette get its *** handed to it in every competition with 911 over the next 5 years. I think Corvette would never concede the field to 911 because GM and Corvette have a long, proud history to defend. You just want another bargain priced sports car with a mid engine that accomplishes nothing. Corvette wants to conquer the sports car world with a superior machine that will dominate Porsche.
You really don't have a clue, do you?
11-25-2018, 07:31 AM
#42
Safety Car
Very true statement. Glad you used the word many, instead of all (shows you are on top of this).
However, and this will be the big change, once the 2020 Corvette ME is revealed, I will not be surprised that for the first time that more than 10% of Porsche buyers, will now consider a Corvette (first time for almost all of them) and many of those 10% will buy the Corvette ME. I was at a Cars-and-Coffee two months ago, talking with three Porsche owners (all with less than two year old cars they had brought), and to a person, each one had not only were on at least their fifth sequential one (one had brought his tenth one), and all three said, that they were very excited about the Corvette ME and “will be seriously looking at it once it is revealed.”
As one said, I will have the courage to not just buy the Corvette, but happily tell my close Porsche friends to go to hell in the process — to which his friends standing with them both said, smilingly, something like, “well I may not tell our Porsche friends to go to hell, but I too could see myself in the new ME Corvette.” Both adding, for the first time!
The 2020 mid engine Corvette has not just the Porsche brand with their heads already cocked, but when the Z06 version comes out, there will be other sports car brand conquests (a Corvette management dream for decades).
11-25-2018, 08:48 AM
#43
Le Mans Master
Well, a conversation with a few Porsche owners at a Cars and Coffee doesn't really qualify as a market sample. Heck, that early on a Saturday after a Friday evening of single malt and Pinot Noir, some folks just nod and say yes rather than engage in philosophical discussion. I mean, really, for the most part, what would the average Porsche enthusiast know about the mid engine Corvette anyway? Heck, even the Corvette enthusiasts themselves "know" absolutely nothing, other than the engine would be behind the driver.
For a couple of decades now, model for model, Corvette has been mopping up tracks with Porsche already. Porsche only real defense is status and more "refined" interior. The 10% number for possible cross shoppers is probably pretty close, however, Corvette isn't going to change "status" overnight, and if they address the interior "shortcomings" they run the risk of alienating their base demographic, which is about the most dangerous thing a company can attempt to do, which by the way, they are already risking by simply changing the format.
Don't get me wrong, a mid engine Corvette is very exciting, and it opens a plethora of engineering doors. The question is going to be about GM's R.O.I. How do they plan to keep their faithful in fold? While many in this sub forum can go buy anything they want, regardless of price, there are far more Corvette buyers that are at their limit at $70K. I assure you, no matter how slick they make the new Corvette, if they over reach themselves, they will lose far more faithful than the cross shoppers they will gain. Unless of course, the mid engine car is it's own entity, planned as the upper scale, low volume performance car with the traditional Corvette going on business as usual.
For a couple of decades now, model for model, Corvette has been mopping up tracks with Porsche already. Porsche only real defense is status and more "refined" interior. The 10% number for possible cross shoppers is probably pretty close, however, Corvette isn't going to change "status" overnight, and if they address the interior "shortcomings" they run the risk of alienating their base demographic, which is about the most dangerous thing a company can attempt to do, which by the way, they are already risking by simply changing the format.
Don't get me wrong, a mid engine Corvette is very exciting, and it opens a plethora of engineering doors. The question is going to be about GM's R.O.I. How do they plan to keep their faithful in fold? While many in this sub forum can go buy anything they want, regardless of price, there are far more Corvette buyers that are at their limit at $70K. I assure you, no matter how slick they make the new Corvette, if they over reach themselves, they will lose far more faithful than the cross shoppers they will gain. Unless of course, the mid engine car is it's own entity, planned as the upper scale, low volume performance car with the traditional Corvette going on business as usual.
11-25-2018, 09:08 AM
#44
Moderator
I guess we gotta do something while we wait. 
11-25-2018, 12:00 PM
#45
The Consigliere
Member Since: May 2006
Location: 2023 Z06 & 2010 ZR1
Posts: 22,269
Received 5,461 Likes
on
2,275 Posts
[QUOTE=PCMIII;1598389473][QUOTE=wilfie;1598389434]
I'm sure execs ask every year for a cost benefit of the racing program.
Or How much can we save by delaying/canceling ME?
If Zora does not win most of the races and dominate Porsche, the cost/benefit ratio will be prohibitive.
Those who think Corvette is building a ME just to be trendy will be sadly disappointed when the high-tech dominator arrives. Zora will not be an engineering exercise that accomplishes nothing like the NSX.
GTLM sanctioning body doesn't allow any team to dominate any other team for any length of time. By application of their BOP rules, they level the field. So Zora won't be allowed to dominate Porsche, or the other way around, for that matter.
The gamesmanship (or shenanigans, depending on one's perspective) around the application of BOP even results in some teams sandbagging in order to get short-term BOP concessions they then use to win a particular race (for craven examples of this, see Ford). But even this sort of thing usually doesn't survive more than a race or two, as over the long haul the reach of the BOP hammer is unavoidable.
I'm sure execs ask every year for a cost benefit of the racing program.
Or How much can we save by delaying/canceling ME?
If Zora does not win most of the races and dominate Porsche, the cost/benefit ratio will be prohibitive.
Those who think Corvette is building a ME just to be trendy will be sadly disappointed when the high-tech dominator arrives. Zora will not be an engineering exercise that accomplishes nothing like the NSX.
The gamesmanship (or shenanigans, depending on one's perspective) around the application of BOP even results in some teams sandbagging in order to get short-term BOP concessions they then use to win a particular race (for craven examples of this, see Ford). But even this sort of thing usually doesn't survive more than a race or two, as over the long haul the reach of the BOP hammer is unavoidable.
The following 2 users liked this post by OnPoint:
desmophile (11-25-2018),
Rapid Fred (11-25-2018)
11-25-2018, 12:18 PM
#46
Melting Slicks
[QUOTE=OnPoint;1598391567][QUOTE=PCMIII;1598389473]
Yeah, right.
"The series-winning #3 Corvette did not win a single event on the 2018 calendar while the #67 Ford GT won three races."
How did Corvette manage to go winless in every race in 2018 while Ford won 3? Obviously, Ford dominated Corvette.
I'm sure execs ask every year for a cost benefit of the racing program.
Or How much can we save by delaying/canceling ME?
GTLM sanctioning body doesn't allow any team to dominate any other team for any length of time. By application of their BOP rules, they level the field. .
Or How much can we save by delaying/canceling ME?
GTLM sanctioning body doesn't allow any team to dominate any other team for any length of time. By application of their BOP rules, they level the field. .
"The series-winning #3 Corvette did not win a single event on the 2018 calendar while the #67 Ford GT won three races."
How did Corvette manage to go winless in every race in 2018 while Ford won 3? Obviously, Ford dominated Corvette.
11-25-2018, 12:23 PM
#47
The Consigliere
Member Since: May 2006
Location: 2023 Z06 & 2010 ZR1
Posts: 22,269
Received 5,461 Likes
on
2,275 Posts
Corvette Racing has won a large number of races in large part because for years they've had a pit chief and pit crew, the discipline, execution and strategy of which have been envy of many teams. That combined with some great drivers who have been both aggressive but prudent, has resulted in a good number of victories for Corvette Racing. They've won at times with these strengths even when the application of BOP on them has been IMO (and that of others as well) BS and unfair. I.e. they've overcome some BOP over-reach by GTLM on several occasions to win via their sound drivers and fabulous pit chief/crew.
Take some time and really study what goes on in GTLM racing. If you do, you'll gain a huge appreciation for what Corvette Racing has been able to accomplish.
You'll also gain a better understanding BOP than what you seem to currently hold.
Take some time and really study what goes on in GTLM racing. If you do, you'll gain a huge appreciation for what Corvette Racing has been able to accomplish.
You'll also gain a better understanding BOP than what you seem to currently hold.
The following 3 users liked this post by OnPoint:
11-25-2018, 12:41 PM
#49
The Consigliere
Member Since: May 2006
Location: 2023 Z06 & 2010 ZR1
Posts: 22,269
Received 5,461 Likes
on
2,275 Posts
GM is building Zora to make money. They should also get a competent race platform variant of it (which will resemble little the street car), which the sanctioning body of GTLM will force to live within a strict set of performance parameters designed (in theory anyway) to keep the broader field competitive.
Those are the facts, whether or not you're willing or able to accept them.
Those are the facts, whether or not you're willing or able to accept them.
11-25-2018, 01:09 PM
#50
Le Mans Master
They're definitely not going to build them to lose races. Especially in the world of sports/performance automobiles, pride of ownership is a huge marketing tool, if not the biggest marketing tool. Win on Sunday, sell on Monday very much still applies, regardless of trim level.
11-25-2018, 02:32 PM
#51
Le Mans Master
True for me,,Corvette,Mustang,Helcat,anything but Porsche.
The following users liked this post:
sunsalem (11-26-2018)
11-25-2018, 05:47 PM
#52
Burning Brakes
As a wise man once said...(and your first paragraph is pretty funny)
Well, a conversation with a few Porsche owners at a Cars and Coffee doesn't really qualify as a market sample. Heck, that early on a Saturday after a Friday evening of single malt and Pinot Noir, some folks just nod and say yes rather than engage in philosophical discussion. I mean, really, for the most part, what would the average Porsche enthusiast know about the mid engine Corvette anyway? Heck, even the Corvette enthusiasts themselves "know" absolutely nothing, other than the engine would be behind the driver.
For a couple of decades now, model for model, Corvette has been mopping up tracks with Porsche already. Porsche only real defense is status and more "refined" interior. The 10% number for possible cross shoppers is probably pretty close, however, Corvette isn't going to change "status" overnight, and if they address the interior "shortcomings" they run the risk of alienating their base demographic, which is about the most dangerous thing a company can attempt to do, which by the way, they are already risking by simply changing the format.
Don't get me wrong, a mid engine Corvette is very exciting, and it opens a plethora of engineering doors. The question is going to be about GM's R.O.I. How do they plan to keep their faithful in fold? While many in this sub forum can go buy anything they want, regardless of price, there are far more Corvette buyers that are at their limit at $70K. I assure you, no matter how slick they make the new Corvette, if they over reach themselves, they will lose far more faithful than the cross shoppers they will gain. Unless of course, the mid engine car is it's own entity, planned as the upper scale, low volume performance car with the traditional Corvette going on business as usual.
For a couple of decades now, model for model, Corvette has been mopping up tracks with Porsche already. Porsche only real defense is status and more "refined" interior. The 10% number for possible cross shoppers is probably pretty close, however, Corvette isn't going to change "status" overnight, and if they address the interior "shortcomings" they run the risk of alienating their base demographic, which is about the most dangerous thing a company can attempt to do, which by the way, they are already risking by simply changing the format.
Don't get me wrong, a mid engine Corvette is very exciting, and it opens a plethora of engineering doors. The question is going to be about GM's R.O.I. How do they plan to keep their faithful in fold? While many in this sub forum can go buy anything they want, regardless of price, there are far more Corvette buyers that are at their limit at $70K. I assure you, no matter how slick they make the new Corvette, if they over reach themselves, they will lose far more faithful than the cross shoppers they will gain. Unless of course, the mid engine car is it's own entity, planned as the upper scale, low volume performance car with the traditional Corvette going on business as usual.
11-25-2018, 06:19 PM
#54
Race Director
Feehan is a master, and he could probably win GTLM with a Camaro. You can bet, though, that he and GM are licking their chops at the opportunity to do with the C8 what they have done with the 5, 6 and 7...
11-26-2018, 02:44 PM
#56
However, and this will be the big change, once the 2020 Corvette ME is revealed, I will not be surprised that for the first time that more than 10% of Porsche buyers, will now consider a Corvette (first time for almost all of them) and many of those 10% will buy the Corvette ME. I was at a Cars-and-Coffee two months ago, talking with three Porsche owners (all with less than two year old cars they had brought), and to a person, each one had not only were on at least their fifth sequential one (one had brought his tenth one), and all three said, that they were very excited about the Corvette ME and “will be seriously looking at it once it is revealed.”
As one said, I will have the courage to not just buy the Corvette, but happily tell my close Porsche friends to go to hell in the process — to which his friends standing with them both said, smilingly, something like, “well I may not tell our Porsche friends to go to hell, but I too could see myself in the new ME Corvette.” Both adding, for the first time!
As one said, I will have the courage to not just buy the Corvette, but happily tell my close Porsche friends to go to hell in the process — to which his friends standing with them both said, smilingly, something like, “well I may not tell our Porsche friends to go to hell, but I too could see myself in the new ME Corvette.” Both adding, for the first time!
When I drive around town, I notice hardly anyone gives a Porsche a 2nd look.
OTOH, my Z gets constant attention: finger pointing, waves, stares, everything...
The 2020 mid engine Corvette has not just the Porsche brand with their heads already cocked, but when the Z06 version comes out, there will be other sports car brand conquests (a Corvette management dream for decades).
Corvette has ALREADY equaled or bested the performance numbers of just about every other car on the road today.
However, it doesn't have that all important caché that is SO important to buyers at that end of the spectrum.
GM hasn't even acknowledged the car exists!
11-26-2018, 03:33 PM
#58
Porsche announced that the new 911, hitting dealers next year, quite a few months ago. They have even given journalists test rides and have published pictures, and have announced the order of release of the various models. Toyota announced some weeks ago that the new Supra will be shown in Detroit. BMW showed the new Z4 in Monterrey in August and it won't be out until next year. GM is acting like the "Top Secret" 2020 ME C8 Corvette is a government secret and that mentioning a word about it will threaten national security. Everyone and their brother knows that the car will be in showrooms sometime during the 2nd half of next year, and the car will most likely be shown at the NYC show in April. (if it was Detroit, that would have been leaked or announced by now, since Detroit is 7 weeks from today). In my opinion, the game GM is playing is crap. They have many loyal customers that have purchase many Corvettes over the years. I am on my 11th. Therefor, I think it would be good PR for GM to at least announce when and where the car will be introduced,the base price, and when production will begin. Whether they do this or not, because we all know that 2019 will be the year of the C8, the sale of remaining C7's will realty not be affected.
11-26-2018, 06:00 PM
#59
11-26-2018, 08:16 PM
#60
Race Director
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: Lawton, OK
Posts: 10,306
Received 9,531 Likes
on
2,323 Posts
C7 & C8 Events Correspondent
Tech Contributor
2020 C8 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
2020 Corvette of the Year (track prepared)
2020 Corvette of the Year Finalist (appearance mods)
C7 of Year Winner (appearance mods) 2019
2017 C7 of Year Finalist
2015 C7 of the Year
St. Jude Donor '14-'15-'16-'17-'18-'19
The following users liked this post:
elegant (11-26-2018)