When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Excellent exchange from owners much more knowledgeable on the specific subject than me.
IMHO the best written arguments come from the "anti-OP" camp and yes..the "let technology prevail" camp is a very persuasive message!
Yet..I am siding with SBC this time (it's usually 50/50) and I am going to try an analogy with the music industry (which I know a lot about) to support SBC's point...
You all remember the music industry switch from analog to digital right!? vinyl and tape to CDs and MP3s...
All done for the sake of "better!! cleaner, less noise, crisper high frequencies and on and on.. Digital wins!
Fast forward to today and substitute analog with shifter and technology with experience...
It has been empirically proven that the analog sound experience is actually better and the industry switch to digital was simply done to revolutionize music delivery with portability and convenience.
In short the music "experience" is delivered better even if the actual music is worse! at least that is what I am getting out of SBC.
I know enough to state there is no way 911 is adding turbos for a skimpy 20HPs! We all know it is about emissions/gas consumptions laws and yes the message is you can have your cake and eat it too! (just like digital music) but it is fundamentally not true. Turbos and DCTs are gas savings technologies conflated as driving improvements and yet like SBC says..(just for digital music in the headphones) don't feel it where it counts.
So this is what is going to happen... analog music is back as a evident "better" nuanced listening experience at 3x the original price..
Stick shift will come back at 3x the original price as well...
As an owner of a GTR I couldn't disagree more. I've driven the PDK cars, and they are were 10x smoother.
Nissan has had nearly a 10 year TSB because every GTR before 2017 would rattle itself to death.
Several threads on the forums echoing this comparison from GTR owners themselves who owned both.
A turbo V8 DCT ME car is the REASON I want to come back to Corvette.
Where is this 15K limit for DCT operational life coming from? Source?
Also, what is a "low priced exotic" in terms of definition?
If I can get a tt mid engine exotic for less than the price of a nissan gtr I'd be happy about it.
I think all the turbo haters need to sit down in my "old" c5 with 800 at the tire so they can complain about
1. horrible sound <gee sounds great what's up>
2. boost lag > hmm makes 796 ft lbs at tire, most of it by 2800 conv stalls at 3200
3. tranny shift ? now there you have me, I have a highly modified 4l65e to hold the power, and I'd love to have a dct that would hold this much torq
4. I'm going to go to 1k at the tire as that's the limit of the chassi
I think alot of the UGR Lambo and Ford GT guys would chime in that their turbo cars "aren't so bad"
I agree that many of the factory turbo cars can be a bit wheezy. I'm surprised you don't like the ferrari 488 tt I think that the new mclearen 600LT would work for me as well.
all those cars are MEGA expensive. Give me 750 HP from the factory <check> a chassis and tranny that can hold it and hook it <ME check> bring it in below current ZR1 pricing <> we'll see ;>
Excellent exchange from owners much more knowledgeable on the specific subject than me.
IMHO the best written arguments come from the "anti-OP" camp and yes..the "let technology prevail" camp is a very persuasive message!
Yet..I am siding with SBC this time (it's usually 50/50) and I am going to try an analogy with the music industry (which I know a lot about) to support SBC's point...
You all remember the music industry switch from analog to digital right!? vinyl and tape to CDs and MP3s...
All done for the sake of "better!! cleaner, less noise, crisper high frequencies and on and on.. Digital wins!
Fast forward to today and substitute analog with shifter and technology with experience...
It has been empirically proven that the analog sound experience is actually better and the industry switch to digital was simply done to revolutionize music delivery with portability and convenience.
In short the music "experience" is delivered better even if the actual music is worse! at least that is what I am getting out of SBC.
I know enough to state there is no way 911 is adding turbos for a skimpy 20HPs! We all know it is about emissions/gas consumptions laws and yes the message is you can have your cake and eat it too! (just like digital music) but it is fundamentally not true. Turbos and DCTs are gas savings technologies conflated as driving improvements and yet like SBC says..(just for digital music in the headphones) don't feel it where it counts.
So this is what is going to happen... analog music is back as a evident "better" nuanced listening experience at 3x the original price..
Stick shift will come back at 3x the original price as well...
Meet the 2020/21 200K plus base GT3..
Perhaps you should stick to music? And please show us the peer-reviewed data showing that ‘vinyl’ is preferred over (high sampling rate) digital.
If you own a Cobra, aren't you technically a luddite?
If your answer from above is yes, does that make your daughter a luddite, because she comes from a family of luddites?
Many millennials think that walking to work is the future, and they don't own a car. Does that makes us both luddites just by merely owning cars?
If the answer above is yes, then can you be a luddite for wanting less technology?
If I drive a car with stick but I have air conditioning, am I still a luddite or does that vindicate me?
If a new technology flops, and gets replaced by the old technology, are you luddite for using the better but older technology?
If I'm poor and can only afford an old stick shift car but prefer a newer automatic car am I still a luddite, or does my purchasing power relegate me to being a luddite?
Is merely having a preference for a technology package make one a luddite?
If my mom drives an automatic turbo car, does that vindicate me from being a luddite?
If you claimed automatic is the future in '55 but stickshift was still being made in 2019, does that make me a luddite for wanting a manual?
If every technology is being replaced at some point, aren't we all luddites just for liking what we see?
If in the long run we're all dead, does that make me a luddite for being alive?
Should we allow a guy who has no preferences but hides behind nostalgia, his purchasing power and his daughter's choices to decide what a luddite is?
Luddite
"a person opposed to new technology or ways of working, a small-minded Luddite resisting progress"
By definition a person who embraces new technology cannot be a Luddite. A person who says DCT/Turbo never, ever, no way is.
Therefore no one in my family is a Luddite.
Nostiliga
"a sentimental longing or wistful affection for the past, typically for a period or place with happy personal associations."
I fit in here with some cars & into the future with others. Grew up in the American Graffiti age, really like Golden Oldies & Muscle cars. Owned quite a few like my Goat below, that brought my oldest daughter home from the maternity hospital where she was born, so there are happy memories. But its properly placed recognizing that in this day technology has passed them all by.
The Cobra fits that era in my life when I owned the designated enemy below that helped create the Cobra. Car ran 25+ years. Bought the StingRay because it was cheaper then the Cobra & had a roof that would be good in the snow.
Just have a hard time with the driving in the past is the only way to be a true driver. Have no issue at all with the C8 being a Turbo 7DCT actually think it will be a great package & it it looks good, drives well would easily buy one.
That seems to me to be the bottom line in the thread , who will buy the new DOHC Turbo 7DCT Corvette. Answer is I would.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-27-2019 at 01:58 PM.
Luddite
"a person opposed to new technology or ways of working, a small-minded Luddite resisting progress"
By definition a person who embraces new technology cannot be a Luddite. A person who says DCT/Turbo never, ever, no way is.
Therefore I or anyone in my family is not a Luddite.
Nostiliga
"a sentimental longing or wistful affection for the past, typically for a period or place with happy personal associations."
I fit in here with some cars & into the future with others. Grew up in the American Graffiti age & really like Golden Oldies & Muscle cars. Owner quite a few so there are happy memories.
The Cobra fits that ear in my like when I owned the designated enemy that helped create the Cobra.
Just have a hard time with the driving in the past is the only way to be a true driver. Have no issue at all with the C8 being a Turbo 7DCT actually think it will be a great package & it it looks good, drives well would easily buy one.
That seems to me to be the bottom line in the thread , who will but the new DOHC Turbo 7DCT Corvette. Answer is I would. Would also but it if it was a Turbo cam in block.
A twin turbo, mid engine, C8 will work just fine for me also along with many others some if not a significant percentage of have never considered a Corvette before. Keep in mind that GM is turning the page with a totally new format here. Make no mistake about it, the C8 is not being produced to satisfy a bunch of grouchy old men in satin jackets who slobber over chrome accessories in an Ecklers cataloque and are unwilling to accept the realities of the 21st century.
Perhaps you should stick to music? And please show us the peer-reviewed data showing that ‘vinyl’ is preferred over (high sampling rate) digital.
Bish
Listening to the master tape trumps all.
But on a more serious note, people tend to like the sound of vinyl better mainly because of how it handles bass. The mono bass frequency sounds rather nice on a stereo setup. That being said, 24 bit digital is pretty much impossible to tell apart from from a fantastic (read tape) analog source. I understand 16 bit vs 24, even I can hear that difference.
Now what does the above tell you? Well that people have preferences just like with DCT and Manuals. However being fair, it should be Master Tape vs Digital Masters as that is the real difference. They both do the same thing it is just a different feel and approach. The real sound difference is the guy behind the recording and mixing desk. No matter how good of an operator you are, or in this case a driver, both can be pretty $hitty sounding (or performing) if you suck at what you do.
What's it gonna be? again, preference. No real right or wrong.
As an owner of a GTR I couldn't disagree more. I've driven the PDK cars, and they are were 10x smoother.
Nissan has had nearly a 10 year TSB because every GTR before 2017 would rattle itself to death.
Several threads on the forums echoing this comparison from GTR owners themselves who owned both.
A turbo V8 DCT ME car is the REASON I want to come back to Corvette.
Where is this 15K limit for DCT operational life coming from? Source?
Also, what is a "low priced exotic" in terms of definition?
I agree about DCT. 30K miles on Audi R8. No issues on DCT. or anything else really. SCT are too harsh for a daily in my opinion but DCT are very nice everywhere.
I agree about DCT. 30K miles on Audi R8. No issues on DCT. or anything else really. SCT are too harsh for a daily in my opinion but DCT are very nice everywhere.
Agree back starting in 2011 3 years & 50K+ miles on mine & never a service issue. The person who bought the car still has it & as far as I know has no issues either. See him at an occasional Auto-X.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-27-2019 at 04:20 PM.
NA is better than (preferred over) a Turbo for feel, sound and track. Turbos (and hydrids) are the way of the future. I’ve accepted that.
But I will never buy a sports car with a torque converter; just won’t happen. Automated manuals, whether single or dual clutch are another story. Simply, they are better, faster and I find them enjoyable. No desire to even try an automatic with a torque converter.
Currently I have a ZR1 M7.
My first DCT was in a NA Audi RS5. I almost didn’t but that car bacause it was an ‘automatic.’ Then someone explained the difference, so I gave it a try. Simply amazing. Shifted ever gear myself; never used automatic mode. My only complaint was there was no way to ‘push in the clutch’ and pop it (fun factor only really). Then the Porsche GT3 came out with that ability. Had to have it. The PDK (DCT) in the GT3 was perfect. Miss it a lot.
I am excited about the DCT in the ME. Automatic guys won’t know the difference, and performance guys that give it a chance will likely love it. Although engineers have told me that the DCT in the ME will not have the ability to ‘push/pull in the clutch’ because there is too much torque, I still have hope, Chevy had a patent not too long ago for an electronic peddle system, including a clutch. In my mind, this should work with a DCT and be able to switch between using and not using the clutch on demand. The engineers became silent when I asked this question. That could mean nothing, or that I am on to something. Time will tell.
Excellent exchange from owners much more knowledgeable on the specific subject than me.
IMHO the best written arguments come from the "anti-OP" camp and yes..the "let technology prevail" camp is a very persuasive message!
Yet..I am siding with SBC this time (it's usually 50/50) and I am going to try an analogy with the music industry (which I know a lot about) to support SBC's point...
You all remember the music industry switch from analog to digital right!? vinyl and tape to CDs and MP3s...
All done for the sake of "better!! cleaner, less noise, crisper high frequencies and on and on.. Digital wins!
Fast forward to today and substitute analog with shifter and technology with experience...
It has been empirically proven that the analog sound experience is actually better and the industry switch to digital was simply done to revolutionize music delivery with portability and convenience.
In short the music "experience" is delivered better even if the actual music is worse! at least that is what I am getting out of SBC.
I know enough to state there is no way 911 is adding turbos for a skimpy 20HPs! We all know it is about emissions/gas consumptions laws and yes the message is you can have your cake and eat it too! (just like digital music) but it is fundamentally not true. Turbos and DCTs are gas savings technologies conflated as driving improvements and yet like SBC says..(just for digital music in the headphones) don't feel it where it counts.
So this is what is going to happen... analog music is back as a evident "better" nuanced listening experience at 3x the original price..
Stick shift will come back at 3x the original price as well...
Meet the 2020/21 200K plus base GT3..
I think I can work with this analogy. I prefer the digital format when accessing my library because it is a storage format that is more enduring distortion wise and easier to access, I keep the signal in the digital domain for processing because the type of processing one can do in the digital domain cannot be done by analog. Our speakers are voltage drivers, and as such they cannot take a direct digital signal. So I do one conversion from digital to analog. I only do one using the highest quality DAC. I prefer G/H class amplifiers because they keep the signal in the analog domain thus allowing me to only make only one digital to analog conversion. I achieve efficiency wherever no signal quality is lost, hence the fully variable power supply in the amplifier. I don't use Class D amplifiers so that I do fewer conversions. Plus, I like some of the benefits G/H amplifiers have, like lack of interference, damping factors, consistent frequency response for every ohm load, etc.
Let's digest now. Like the choice of car, the choice of digital/analog in the audio domain is on a case by case basis. I wouldn't call myself strictly a digital guy because I don't own one of the very few all digital solutions on the market. I wouldn't call myself analog because I love advanced processing and can't live without it. Furthermore, almost everyone who claims to be a digital guy, progressive, high tech, etc for using digital formats and not vinyl is wrong. That is because there is an analog component to almost every sound system on earth.
Am I old school for liking manual/na cars? No, I don't think these two technologies are oldschool. I think that's a misunderstanding. Automation is progress sometimes and choice in other applications. It's a choice here. Take for example the argument that DCT is nothing other than a stick shift transmission with a couple of extra parts to automate the shift. I can just as easily argue it's the same transmission where automation is a choice. When customer satisfaction is a variable, automation is a choice, and manual cannot be an inferior choice if it is preferred and the innards are the same. It takes a lot of investment to make a proper na engine perform in motorsport, I would even call na a luxury. That is why I find it ridiculous to spend the money for an exotic but not get an exotic engine. I like the latest technology for designing head flow, for developing materials that are stronger, for simulating stress points without the usual trial and error in automotive manufacturing. Sometimes I like oldschool tech, sometimes I don't, and in this case I don't consider either stick shift or NA oldschool.
Chevy had a patent not too long ago for an electronic peddle system, including a clutch. In my mind, this should work with a DCT and be able to switch between using and not using the clutch on demand. The engineers became silent when I asked this question. That could mean nothing, or that I am on to something. Time will tell.
I remember that patent, I think you might be on to something there...
Just thought being a nice guy would help to save the manuals. Got an email with a list of 450bhp+ MT's still available today.
Porsche 911 Carrera GTS - 450 HP
Chevrolet Camaro SS - 460 HP
Chevrolet Corvette Stingray and Grand Sport - 460 HP
Ford Mustang GT - 460 HP
Cadillac ATS-V Coupe - 464 HP
Dodge Challenger R/T Scat Pack - 485 HP
Porsche 911 GT3 - 500 HP
Ford Mustang Shelby GT350 - 526 HP
Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 - 650 HP
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 - 650 HP
Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat - 717 HP
Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 - 755 HP
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-30-2019 at 03:14 PM.
I think I can work with this analogy. I prefer the digital format when accessing my library because it is a storage format that is more enduring distortion wise and easier to access, I keep the signal in the digital domain for processing because the type of processing one can do in the digital domain cannot be done by analog. Our speakers are voltage drivers, and as such they cannot take a direct digital signal. So I do one conversion from digital to analog. I only do one using the highest quality DAC. I prefer G/H class amplifiers because they keep the signal in the analog domain thus allowing me to only make only one digital to analog conversion. I achieve efficiency wherever no signal quality is lost, hence the fully variable power supply in the amplifier. I don't use Class D amplifiers so that I do fewer conversions. Plus, I like some of the benefits G/H amplifiers have, like lack of interference, damping factors, consistent frequency response for every ohm load, etc.
Let's digest now. Like the choice of car, the choice of digital/analog in the audio domain is on a case by case basis. I wouldn't call myself strictly a digital guy because I don't own one of the very few all digital solutions on the market. I wouldn't call myself analog because I love advanced processing and can't live without it. Furthermore, almost everyone who claims to be a digital guy, progressive, high tech, etc for using digital formats and not vinyl is wrong. That is because there is an analog component to almost every sound system on earth.
Am I old school for liking manual/na cars? No, I don't think these two technologies are oldschool. I think that's a misunderstanding. Automation is progress sometimes and choice in other applications. It's a choice here. Take for example the argument that DCT is nothing other than a stick shift transmission with a couple of extra parts to automate the shift. I can just as easily argue it's the same transmission where automation is a choice. When customer satisfaction is a variable, automation is a choice, and manual cannot be an inferior choice if it is preferred and the innards are the same. It takes a lot of investment to make a proper na engine perform in motorsport, I would even call na a luxury. That is why I find it ridiculous to spend the money for an exotic but not get an exotic engine. I like the latest technology for designing head flow, for developing materials that are stronger, for simulating stress points without the usual trial and error in automotive manufacturing. Sometimes I like oldschool tech, sometimes I don't, and in this case I don't consider either stick shift or NA oldschool.
This link is not to perpetrate the analog/digital war (aka MT/DCT) but to outline my interpretation and merits of your original and subsequent posts. Along the acoustics analogy I find it rather fitting the article refers to the digital experience as “cold” the same way turbos and dct translate to “lifeless” in spite of being great technologies applied (IMHO) for ancillary benefits.
MP3 is a great digital format. It has an ancillary benefit to works great for music portability but acoustically (principle benefit) is still pretty weak.
So portability or acoustics?
What do we want out of turbos? Power/torque or fuel economy?
Last edited by Telepierre; 01-30-2019 at 03:57 PM.
Jaguar F type 6MT is dead. Low 4% take rate killed it. Interesting point in the comment "after the enthusiast market demanded the MT be added to the product line, its was. But nobody bought them.
01-27-2019, 02:05 AM
again, preference. No real right or wrong.
