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Is a dual-clutch transmission right for you?

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Is a dual-clutch transmission right for you?

 
Old 07-10-2019, 09:01 PM
  #41  
Supermassive
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Originally Posted by vndkshn View Post
But it is in the C8 isnít it? Thatís the point. They wonít be able to just stick this trans into another vehicle.
You don't really understand transmissions. The guts of the DCT can be put in any "case" GM wants. If GM wants to put that DCT into a FWD car, I am positive they could find a way. The transaxle in the C8 is a "configuration" of a DCT from the transmission manufacturer, such as Tremec or ZF.
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Old 07-10-2019, 09:05 PM
  #42  
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I want a manual. I love manuals. Almost every new car I've bought has had one.

But if I can get a mid engined "spyder" experience in a car I can afford I can live with a DCT.
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Old 07-10-2019, 09:26 PM
  #43  
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I have owned 11 vehicles with a dual clutch transmission. I would not own a conventional TQ- converter auto trans. Since the Corvette is not going to have a manual transmission a DCT is the only way I would buy the car.

If the DCT is programmed properly to match the engine rpm’s it’s truly a lot of fun. The fast shifts create burbles and pops from the exhaust the sound can be amazing. In one of the video”s of the C8 you could her the shift and the exhaust making pops while slowing down.

Last edited by fasttoys; 07-10-2019 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 07-10-2019, 09:42 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by crabman View Post
The A8... Yeah, I first tasted it in the Camaro, was clearly slower power on to power on than a DCT I had at the time in an E92, I mean much much slower. The BMW could put you off the road if you weren't careful it came back on power so hard and fast after a shift.
While that may feel faster, it's precisely what you don't want on a high horsepower car, which is already traction limited. "Spinnin' ain't winnin' ". That can be taken care of on either a torque converter automatic or a DCT with the proper engine and transmission programming, providing a shift which gives more even torque to the rear wheels, rather than jerking the tires loose.

Sure, I was impressed as a teenager by modified automatics which would chirp the tires on even a part-throttle shift. It wasn't until later that I learned it really had nothing to do with being fast..

Last edited by Warp Factor; 07-10-2019 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 07-10-2019, 10:26 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Supermassive View Post
You don't really understand transmissions. The guts of the DCT can be put in any "case" GM wants. If GM wants to put that DCT into a FWD car, I am positive they could find a way. The transaxle in the C8 is a "configuration" of a DCT from the transmission manufacturer, such as Tremec or ZF.
You donít really understand reading comprehension. Go back through the whole thread.
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Old 07-10-2019, 10:42 PM
  #46  
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I have a DCT in an Audi RS5 and have driven several different Porsche PDKís in high performance manner including the Porsche Driving Experirnce program in Germany. Iím a manual guy to the bone BUT still manage to get a huge ďkickĒ out of driving a DCT. I think the C8ís biggest challenge is getting the tranny right. Tremec has a huge lift to make a reliable DCT that is competive ďfeel wiseĒ with what ZF has spent more than a decade perfecting. If the C8ís tranny falls short, itís not possible for near perfection in everything else to make up for it. In that respect, GM is taking a huge gamble IMO.
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Old 07-10-2019, 10:43 PM
  #47  
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Yes would buy it over a MT

Yeah there are FWD DCT cars. What might complicate putting the "guts" of the Corvette ME transaxle DCT version into a standard FE/RWD configuration is how the differential is integrated into the package. Expect there would be a number of parts in common but dont think it would be a straight case swap.

Anyway those worrying about will the trans be any good think its going to be will the software be any good. I am not all that worried about the mechanicals a gear box is a gear box.

Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 07-11-2019 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 07-10-2019, 10:46 PM
  #48  
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I had a DCT in my previous 16 M3. A great transmission that shifts fast both up and down. However it got quite boring to me. The C8 will have to be a HUGE improvement in a lot of ways for me to consider one when the Z version comes out. As for now Iím considering a low wing M7 ZR1 to be my next car in a coupe years.
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Old 07-10-2019, 11:20 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Warp Factor View Post
While that may feel faster, it's precisely what you don't want on a high horsepower car, which is already traction limited. "Spinnin' ain't winnin' ". That can be taken care of on either a torque converter automatic or a DCT with the proper engine and transmission programming, providing a shift which gives more even torque to the rear wheels, rather than jerking the tires loose.

Sure, I was impressed as a teenager by modified automatics which would chirp the tires on even a part-throttle shift. It wasn't until later that I learned it really had nothing to do with being fast..
I'm an old man, I've had many high hp cars some of which I owned long before traction control existed. You have a thing called a throttle and another called discretion: In other words just because you can jump off a cliff doesn't mean you should jump off that cliff. With that DCT you drive the car and get exactly what you asked for, with the A8 GMs attorneys and bean counters control the shifting and power on algorithms. That's true of that DCT as well but to a much lesser extent. The A8 is slow on power to reduce costs for warranty and to allow for the engineering of less expensive components. It could shift much more quickly and still maintain traction, guys are out there doing it every day with other transmissions and they are going faster doing it.
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Old 07-10-2019, 11:25 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by fasttoys View Post
I have owned 11 vehicles with a dual clutch transmission. I would not own a conventional TQ- converter auto trans. Since the Corvette is not going to have a manual transmission a DCT is the only way I would buy the car.

If the DCT is programmed properly to match the engine rpm’s it’s truly a lot of fun. The fast shifts create burbles and pops from the exhaust the sound can be amazing. In one of the video”s of the C8 you could her the shift and the exhaust making pops while slowing down.
I have to say I am not impressed with all the tailpipe firecracker theatrics of some of today's cars. Jaguar is big into this. In an F Type R in sport mode, don't let off the gas near a cop, or he/she may open fire and ask questions later. Porsche started doing this nonsense with the 718 Cayman, to cover up the lame four cylinder sound. The whole thing comes off very fake to me, and it is fake. These cars don't have carburetors. It ranks right up there with piping in pseudo exhaust sound through the stereo (are you listening BMW). Besides if you are going to have a fireworks show coming out the exhaust, activate all the senses, and do it right with flames coming out the exhaust. For those of us not into creating a sideshow, there should be a setting in the car to selectively turn all this nonsense off.

Last edited by Michael A; 07-10-2019 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 07-11-2019, 12:12 AM
  #51  
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The dct in my m3 is just ok and my Mclaren was not really good in auto mode but in my gt3rs itís incredible!
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Old 07-11-2019, 02:10 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by nunii View Post
The dct in my m3 is just ok and my Mclaren was not really good in auto mode but in my gt3rs itís incredible!
IN
The DCT in my Mercedes AMG GTS is the same transmission (7DCL750) used in the Ford GT and Ferrari California. It's the best transmission I've ever experienced. Of the 38 cars I've own in my life, I've had many manuals, including in the three Corvettes I've owned. I always preferred a manual - until I bought the GTS. Even if the C8 were offered with a manual, I'd pick the dual clutch.
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Old 07-11-2019, 05:36 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by vndkshn View Post
You donít really understand reading comprehension. Go back through the whole thread.
He understands reading comprehension just fine. You and NY09C6 are implying through your posts that somehow the DCT in the new car will only be in the Corvette and not shared across other platforms. I wouldn't bet on that. My speculation based on years and years of owning and understanding Corvettes is: that DCT or some form of it will find its way into other GM cars regardless of their engine layout. Amortizing costs is GM's way; without it our cars would cost vastly more than they do today. The truck guys pay for the Corvette's engine, it just gets changed enough to meet what Corvette needs. The same will likely be said about the DCT and other car lines within GM.

We'll see.
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Old 07-11-2019, 07:52 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by 1965markaccount View Post
Just for a rough estimate I went and copied the following from a Porsche forum.

"If I am reading the parts diagram correctly, a new '09 Cayman S PDK transmission is 9G2-300-021-20 dealer list $27,264.66, a reman unit is 9G2-300-021-2X dealer list $12,125.42.

While it is correct that most service parts (and tech doc) are unavailable, you can get the valve body, cooler, seals, and a few other odds and ends. The valve body is often what needs attention."
Thank you. While I'd hope the DCT in the C8 is not as expensive, at this point no one really knows in the gen public, I guess until after it becomes extensively used. We DO know, however, the approx. cost of a new ediff in the C7 tho (mid-$5K range), and it isn't "your father's swap out of a new rear axle with diff."

Originally Posted by Foosh View Post
I can't find it now, but I distinctly remember when the A8 was about to be introduced, GM published some data purporting to show the A8 to be equal or better than the PDK in terms of shift speed. Most believed it at the time, and that was one reason the auto sales percentages jumped suddenly over manual.

Fast forward to today after the A8 has created so much angst, not many accept that anymore, and so many expect just going to a DCT is going to be nirvana. I think the PDK has raised DCT expectations to mythical proportions. I hope they aren't disappointed again, but this is another of those things I'm keeping my fingers crossed about.
Yes, I do recall reading that about the A8.

Originally Posted by Michael A View Post
I have to say I am not impressed with all the tailpipe firecracker theatrics of some of today's cars. Jaguar is big into this. In an F Type R in sport mode, don't let off the gas near a cop, or he/she may open fire and ask questions later. Porsche started doing this nonsense with the 718 Cayman, to cover up the lame four cylinder sound. The whole thing comes off very fake to me, and it is fake. These cars don't have carburetors. It ranks right up there with piping in pseudo exhaust sound through the stereo (are you listening BMW). Besides if you are going to have a fireworks show coming out the exhaust, activate all the senses, and do it right with flames coming out the exhaust. For those of us not into creating a sideshow, there should be a setting in the car to selectively turn all this nonsense off.
But there are modes to put the exhaust in quiet most of the time except on hard acceleration. I don't know about the BMW-cabin "exhaust sound" and whether it can be quieted tho.

Originally Posted by jvp View Post
He understands reading comprehension just fine. You and NY09C6 are implying through your posts that somehow the DCT in the new car will only be in the Corvette and not shared across other platforms. I wouldn't bet on that. My speculation based on years and years of owning and understanding Corvettes is: that DCT or some form of it will find its way into other GM cars regardless of their engine layout. Amortizing costs is GM's way; without it our cars would cost vastly more than they do today. The truck guys pay for the Corvette's engine, it just gets changed enough to meet what Corvette needs. The same will likely be said about the DCT and other car lines within GM.

We'll see.
I believe the above. GM has always been very smart about sharing components across lines, brands, models, etc. Sometimes, that's true even tho the items aren't very good, but it does reduce overall costs (to buy from a supplier, and to charge the end customer). At this time, I'd guess no one outside GM knows where, or with what vehicles the DCT will be shared. But while I may want exclusivity to only the C8, I do tend to doubt it will be ONLY FOR Corvette. Or even, Corvette and Camaro.
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Old 07-11-2019, 07:57 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by miroad View Post
IN
The DCT in my Mercedes AMG GTS is the same transmission (7DCL750) used in the Ford GT and Ferrari California. It's the best transmission I've ever experienced. Of the 38 cars I've own in my life, I've had many manuals, including in the three Corvettes I've owned. I always preferred a manual - until I bought the GTS. Even if the C8 were offered with a manual, I'd pick the dual clutch.
That's the same DCT that BMW uses as well in the Z4 and M cars - love it
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Old 07-11-2019, 09:59 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by spireland View Post
I want a manual. I love manuals. Almost every new car I've bought has had one.

But if I can get a mid engined "spyder" experience in a car I can afford I can live with a DCT.
I think we just became best friends I think the exact same way. I'd prefer a manual, but for a mid-engine spyder experience I can actually afford I'll take the DCT.

PS - the folks I know who know have confirmed the manual is done. That's not terribly surprising to most of us, but there is 0% chance of a surprise manual on the 18th. That doesn't mean they might not bring it back one day, but for now... done.
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Old 07-11-2019, 10:17 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Warp Factor View Post
I'm curious how you knew how fast the shifts were. Modern DCTs don't always cut the ignition during a shift like the early ones did, producing that characteristic "bark", which some interpret as a fast shift.
The Corvette A8 doesn't either, though it will under some circumstance.

Instead, the majority of shifts are accomplished with some combination of throttle reduction, timing retard, and clutch or torque converter slippage. Jerky shifts were considered to be an indication of high performance at one time, when cars only had around 500 horsepower, but they are horrible for traction management at higher power levels.
I should have been clearer in my comment. I meant when you hit the shift paddle, there was a slightly higher delay to shift with the Aston Martin Automatic compared to the PDK.
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Old 07-11-2019, 10:32 AM
  #58  
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This car is the biggest gamble gm will make in my lifetime.

So many things that will inherently have an issue or 2 (or 10) and this can all go sideways fast.

That's why the safe(r) approach would have been to make the ME with a conventional trans and a manual then offer the DCT and a manual over time. Just my opinion.

It seems like they are sticking to ohv engine for now. And it makes me wonder how they have this much faith in the DCT. I hope they're right as I may... be looking at the late Z06 version once I'm convinced this isn't 1984 all over again. Where every year for the next 12....they made the car better and whichever bought the year before got screwed. If they can put a car together that can make it 3 or 4yrs without huge improvements I will feel a lot more comfortable trying out an ME car..

Just tough watching the latter years if each design be night and day better then having to trade up.. in gonna try patience this time lol
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Old 07-11-2019, 10:38 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by jvp View Post
He understands reading comprehension just fine. You and NY09C6 are implying through your posts that somehow the DCT in the new car will only be in the Corvette and not shared across other platforms. I wouldn't bet on that. My speculation based on years and years of owning and understanding Corvettes is: that DCT or some form of it will find its way into other GM cars regardless of their engine layout. Amortizing costs is GM's way; without it our cars would cost vastly more than they do today. The truck guys pay for the Corvette's engine, it just gets changed enough to meet what Corvette needs. The same will likely be said about the DCT and other car lines within GM.

We'll see.
So GM can take a transmission that was designed for a ME car (making it a transaxle) and shove it into... oh, let's say a front wheel drive car like the (which is most of what they make other than trucks, Camaro, and Corvette). With ZERO changes (changes that would make it a different transmission, which was NY09C6's point). "Economies of scale" work when there are no changes.

Taking that a step further, it we assume the C8 has 500hp and close to that in torque, what sense does it make to put a transmission that was developed for that into a car with half the power? It makes zero sense and it is something GM has never done for logical reasons.

On top of that, why would a truck need a DCT? GM already has a pretty awesome transmission in the trucks (their biggest advantage IMHO) and a truck doesn't really need super fast shifts because they aren't sports cars.

So, unless GM plans to build other cars with a longitudinal transaxle, this trans is very likely Corvette specific.

Now, can they take what they have learned and use that to build a more generic transmission? Sure, and I can see that happening. But, that is not using the same transmission. I also think DCTs are a nitch solution and as TC autos continue to iadvance, DCTs may go away. The comments from the Aston Martin CEO make alot of sense when you think about it.

Last edited by vndkshn; 07-11-2019 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 07-11-2019, 10:38 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by miroad View Post
IN
The DCT in my Mercedes AMG GTS is the same transmission (7DCL750) used in the Ford GT and Ferrari California. It's the best transmission I've ever experienced. Of the 38 cars I've own in my life, I've had many manuals, including in the three Corvettes I've owned. I always preferred a manual - until I bought the GTS. Even if the C8 were offered with a manual, I'd pick the dual clutch.
It is highly unlikely we will see such an expensive trans in a 60k Corvette.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/f...ce-130104.html

Last edited by NY09C6; 07-11-2019 at 10:58 AM.
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