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That 360 lb car weight difference for essentially the same size car (the even look similar) is no doubt partly due to the weight difference between the higher ho 3.9 Liter turbo and the 6.2 liter LT2. It has leess weight in the rear. Frankly the 60% rear weight on the C8 is high, essentially equally to a rear engine 911! The math shows you need that rear weight to get the low 0 to 60 mph! Just follow Jason's presentation:
For all the diehard pushrod folks, I'm a fan as well! Built my first engine, a '50 Olds I stuffed in my "41 Ford Coupe in 1959! Put that together from parts I bought in peach baskets from a friend. Had it bored 1/8 inches for '55 pistons, 3/4 race cam, 4 barrel. Built a 502/502 from 35 boxes for my street rod 20 years ago (when they were available unassembled.) Still runs great. In between sponsored Richard Petty for 15 years starting when they were in Level Cross until I semi-retired. Recall Dale Inman saying one day, go talk to the new engine builder he sounds like you (he was also a Yankee!) Dale was a fun, great guy to work with! Watched and appreciated how they got extra power!
But like I advanced from a "slip stick," there are more advanced designs. This is my 5th Vette with a small block as was the one in my '56 Chevy! Liked them all. Chevy did a remarkable job getting 495 drivable hp from a 6.2 Liter small block. It does require a "stump puller" low gear DCT to get the 0 to 60 mph number. I've only had DDs with a 3rd pedal but that performance trumps the transmission for me. I have "hold-a-spot money down on a C8 and will enjoy that small block as well!
I guess you didn't read what I wrote. The LT1 weight 465 pounds how much less do you think the Ferrari engine weighs?
Enjoy the dialog with pushrod lovers! I know I'll never convince you but F1 engines weigh ~300 lbs, are 1.6 Liter twin turbo V6's and produce 850 to 900 hp! They do run on gasoline! They also have to run for a number of races, no rebuilding after each! Now I'm a big Drag Racing fan and think Prostock has some of the most sophisticated engines. They get ~1500 hp from 8.2 liters (also on gasoline.) That's 180/hp/Liter. F1 is 560 hp/Liter!
Nothing to do with "loving" one vs. the other. 2 engines with very similar dimensions made of mostly the same materials are not going to differ wildly in weight.
An engines physical dimensions, weight, power output, torque curve, impact on center of gravity and fuel efficiency are far more important than how many cams or where they are to me.
Enjoy the dialog with pushrod lovers! I know I'll never convince you but F1 engines weigh ~300 lbs, are 1.6 Liter twin turbo V6's and produce 850 to 900 hp! They do run on gasoline! They also have to run for a number of races, no rebuilding after each! Now I'm a big Drag Racing fan and think Prostock has some of the most sophisticated engines. They get ~1500 hp from 8.2 liters (also on gasoline.) That's 180/hp/Liter. F1 is 560 hp/Liter!
You went from weight of a corvette vs Ferrari engines to turbocharged F1 engines versus naturally aspirated pro stock engines.
An engines physical dimensions, weight, power output, torque curve, impact on center of gravity and fuel efficiency are far more important than how many cams or where they are to me.
Originally Posted by rbeasley1
You went from weight of a corvette vs Ferrari engines to turbocharged F1 engines versus naturally aspirated pro stock engines.
I present the data I have! That 360 lb weight difference and lower % rear weight between a Ferrari 488 and C8 is partly in the engine!
The chassis are both made from aluminum, the Ferrari has aluminum body panels and the C8 composites, which Tadge says now have a specific gravity less than 1, they float! They have the same tire sizes. Both have DCT's.
The Ferrari engine has at least 65 more hp. Tweaked in the Pista it’s 720 hp. Hmm that's C8 Z06 territory!
Street cars are completely displacement limited. Space is at a premium, fuel economy a requirement, the list goes on and on. So it is an honest way of looking at it.
That just proves my point. The replacement for displacement is more money (ie, throwing boost at a 6 liter to make it more powerful).
Looking at the structures, that is exactly how they are getting the engine in there. It looks like a real bitch to get it out from the top.
Man you are moving the goal posts. Comparing motorsports power outputs to street car stuff, then going on about the limitations on power of an NA OHV as if the same constraints don't apply to every IC engine.
No street cars are not displacement limited in the same way as motorsports. The fact that there is an inherent physical limitation to any power plant (or frankly any device ever built) is not only disingenuous but it adds zero information, the fact that there are "environmental" constraints is trivially true. A very different situation than a formula stating that the engines can be no bigger than 1.5liters or whatever the number is, drastically skews the solution space compared to "natural" constraints which are much more forgiving than an arbitrary rule. Maybe a 3 liter ohv turbo motor would be a better solution than a 1.5 liter ohc turbo motor, who knows...(that experiment has been performed once in 1993 at IMS).
I present the data I have! That 360 lb weight difference and lower % rear weight between a Ferrari 488 and C8 is partly in the engine!
The chassis are both made from aluminum, the Ferrari has aluminum body panels and the C8 composites, which Tadge says now have a specific gravity less than 1, they float! They have the same tire sizes. Both have DCT's.
The Ferrari engine has at least 65 more hp. Tweaked in the Pista it’s 720 hp.
Presenting random data without a coherent story is useless.
The floating pieces are a few of the interior parts...
I present the data I have! That 360 lb weight difference and lower % rear weight between a Ferrari 488 and C8 is partly in the engine!
The chassis are both made from aluminum, the Ferrari has aluminum body panels and the C8 composites, which Tadge says now have a specific gravity less than 1, they float! They have the same tire sizes. Both have DCT's.
The Ferrari engine has at least 65 more hp. Tweaked in the Pista it’s 720 hp.
You didn't present any data. You saw a weight difference and assumed it was all engine related. I don't know how much a Ferrari 8 cylinder twin turbo engine weighs, but it certainly isn't 300 pounds less than a 465 pound LT1 and I wouldn't be surprised if it actually weighed more than an LT1. Modern engines are pretty light.
Highly doubtful. Ferrari is cagey with the overall engine weight, but both the F154 CB and LT1/2 are all aluminum. I can find a few dimensions in Ferrari's press release on the 488.
F154 CB
Height - 25.51"
Width - 27.56"
LT1
Height - 25.26"
Width - 27.88"
Even if we assume the Ferrari's internals are lighter, there simply isn't going to be a lot of weight savings there. In fact the additional hardware of the DOHC design is likely to negate any of this.
The real weight savings here is in the chassis. GM simply can't produce a carbon fiber tub chassis at the price point they want to hit.
Both "tubs" being metal expect it might be a wash for major weight savings one vs the other. Data is most likely a trade secret but I wonder what Ferrari's engines & internals are actually made of. Plain old alloy & steel or exotic lightweight metals.
Know this was kicked around before with all kinds of conflicting weight claims but the Ford 5.2 DOHC & Chevy 6.2 OHV are similar with the Chevy getting an extra liter in displacement but in production cars both non-boosted N/A engines & using the GT-350 & the C8 the FORD gets 526BHP & The Chevy 495BHP.
Both "tubs" being metal expect it might be a wash for major weight savings one vs the other. Data is most likely a trade secret but I wonder what Ferrari's engines & internals are actually made of. Plain old alloy & steel or exotic lightweight metals.
Know this was kicked around before with all kinds of conflicting weight claims but the Ford 5.2 DOHC & Chevy 6.2 OHV are similar with the Chevy getting an extra liter in displacement but in production cars both non-boosted N/A engines & using the GT-350 & the C8 the FORD gets 526BHP & The Chevy 495BHP.
Engine internals aren't super heavy. The crankshaft is a bit weighty. They probably have a forged or even billet crank, titanium rods and valves. The extra camshaft and turbos would more than make up any weight savings it had from exotic materials. The block and heads are probably aluminum. They could machine and engineer the block to allow more material removal while maintaining strength. I seriously doubt the Ferrari engine is lighter with the extra cam and turbos. They weight difference likely comes from the car being a bit over 2 inches shorter, and not full of mass produced seat motors, switches, and other controls. The Ferrari structure likely has considerable weight savings from carbon fiber used in the construction.
Know this was kicked around before with all kinds of conflicting weight claims but the Ford 5.2 DOHC & Chevy 6.2 OHV are similar with the Chevy getting an extra liter in displacement but in production cars both non-boosted N/A engines & using the GT-350 & the C8 the FORD gets 526BHP & The Chevy 495BHP.
Earth to Bear::
Hello, Ford no longer offers that engine, because it had huge durability problems. Yup, it made a whopping 31 more horsepower, while it lasted.
Last edited by Warp Factor; 08-14-2019 at 02:11 PM.
Potential C8 buyers ragging on those who would have preferred a FE Corvette, saying they're stuck in the past. Now holding on to the pushrod engine
As much as I love the LS engines for what they are, there's no denying that SOHC and DOHC is a better option and that the 1990-95 LT5 remains the technical pinnacle of Corvette V8's. The pushrod V8 lives on only because of the costs related to switching over production.
You conveniently forgot to mention that the current pushrod V8 works fantastic, sounds great, and can make all the power 99% of us could or ever would use.
How many Corvette guys want some pencil neck, 2 liter,Boxster motor that you have to run like a chain saw. Forget about it!
Both "tubs" being metal expect it might be a wash for major weight savings one vs the other. Data is most likely a trade secret but I wonder what Ferrari's engines & internals are actually made of. Plain old alloy & steel or exotic lightweight metals.
Know this was kicked around before with all kinds of conflicting weight claims but the Ford 5.2 DOHC & Chevy 6.2 OHV are similar with the Chevy getting an extra liter in displacement but in production cars both non-boosted N/A engines & using the GT-350 & the C8 the FORD gets 526BHP & The Chevy 495BHP.
I'd guess they are using exotic metals, but adding in the extra hardware needed for DOHC is going to eat away at that savings.
As far as the Ford motor vs. the LT2. The OHV engine tends to have a broader torque curve, tighter packaging and a lower cg. I'm sure both would be very satisfying to drive.
Earth to Bear::
Hello, Ford no longer offers that engine, because it had huge durability problems. Yup, it made a whopping 31 more horsepower, while it lasted.
Ford doesn't make a 5.2 VooDoo V8 in the Shelby GT350? Might want to tell Ford that, it's still shown on their website as available.
Earth to Bear::
Hello, Ford no longer offers that engine, because it had huge durability problems. Yup, it made a whopping 31 more horsepower, while it lasted.
Guess FORD & C&D did not get your memo. Better resend it.
FORD 2020 add & C&D test:
"The 2020 Ford Mustang Shelby GT350 is a powerful, high-strung muscle car designed to rock race tracks while still being at home on the street. Its special 526 horspower 5.2-liter V-8 code-named Voodoo, with good reason—revs to a dizzying 8250 rpm with an unforgettable shriek that sounds more Ferrari than Ford.
The GT500 benefits from some trickle-up tech from the GT350 and GT350R models—its dual-overhead-cam 5.2-liter V-8. Of course, in the GT500, the engine is supercharged, boosting its output from 526 horsepower to an overkill 760."
BTW happy to see the L2 packing on a whopping 35 more horsepower in the C8 to 495BHP.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 08-14-2019 at 02:52 PM.
Enjoy the dialog with pushrod lovers! I know I'll never convince you but F1 engines weigh ~300 lbs, are 1.6 Liter twin turbo V6's and produce 850 to 900 hp! They do run on gasoline! They also have to run for a number of races, no rebuilding after each! Now I'm a big Drag Racing fan and think Prostock has some of the most sophisticated engines. They get ~1500 hp from 8.2 liters (also on gasoline.) That's 180/hp/Liter. F1 is 560 hp/Liter!
PS Ferrari uses aluminum construction for the 488:
I wonder why the c7 vette weighed more than the c6 vette, and the c8 vette weighs more than the c7 vette. I guess Chevy just keeps making the engine heavier. Pretty interesting they somehow made the engine 100 pounds heavier for the c8 when it is essentially the same engine. It couldn't possibly be something else causing the weight gain right?
Car weights, both from Car& Driver:
Ferrari 488 = 3241 lbs
C8 est. = 3600 lbs
Can't get engine weights but the cars are about the same overall size. That 3.9 Liter Ferrari engine is no doubt significantly lighter than a 6.2 small block!
I just looked up the weight for a c6 ZO6. It is listed at 3131 pounds. That is 110 pounds lighter than what you show for the 488. Must have an engine 110 pounds lighter than the Ferrari engine. Wow quite the feat for a small block Chevy with pushrods.
Don't know how accurate this is but its published list:
Ferrari 456GT: 235kg Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z06: 200kg Lamborghini Diablo SE30 GT: 270kg Ferrari Enzo: 225kg Ferrari F430: 188kg BMW 740i (92): 210kg Porsche 997 Carrera S: 201kg Ferrari F355: 168kg BMW 330i (03): 162kg
Don't know what the Lamborghini Aventador engine weighs but is a 6.5L that does 740BHP without forced induction. Car weighs 3470lbs
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 08-14-2019 at 03:35 PM.
08-14-2019, 12:51 PM
