Why so much interest in mid-engine C8?
Racer
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 377
Likes: 49
From: Melbourne FL
My second car was a Fiat X1/9 Mid-engine sports car. Road visibility was incredible as there was no engine obstructing the view and the handling was excellent. It was a tiny car but had two trucks one in front and one behind the engine compartment. For a car no bigger than an MG, it had a surprising amount of storage space. While I doubt that the C8 ME design will incorporate 2 trunks, I also doubt that GM will throw out so much storage space that we won’t be able to use the car for touring. We’ll have to wait and see.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 7,074
Likes: 1,041
From: The GREAT STATE of IOWA!
The Corvette almost died for a number of reasons, many of them the huge turn around in company mentality where the focus became maximizing profits for the shareholder as espoused by GE head Jack Welch. If it isn't vastly profitable, kill it was his mentality and it ripped thru America's corporations like wildfire. The vette was almost a victim of that short sighted mentality.
Guys in suits answering to wall street aren't always the best people to look to for leadership.
Race Director
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 11,547
Likes: 115
From: Arlington TX
I have owned a Corvette every year since I was 21 and I am 42 now. When I got my first new Vette it was a 2000 hardtop and it was so much fun to drive, then I got a 2003 Z06 and it was great too. My next purchase was a 2004 Gallardo.
The Gallardo I much prefer the seating position vs the front engine cars. I have driven Vipers too and feel you just sit too far back in the car and feel a little bit disconnected. Also being ME the Gallardo has much smaller front tires than the Vette or Viper so it also doesn't follow the grooves on the highway. My Z06 and the Viper more so was annoying at times on the highway.
Then there is the turn in, having the weight in a better place in the car makes the front end feel so much lighter, my Gallardo I converted to 2wd many years ago and it is the way it should have been from the factory.
The Gallardo I much prefer the seating position vs the front engine cars. I have driven Vipers too and feel you just sit too far back in the car and feel a little bit disconnected. Also being ME the Gallardo has much smaller front tires than the Vette or Viper so it also doesn't follow the grooves on the highway. My Z06 and the Viper more so was annoying at times on the highway.
Then there is the turn in, having the weight in a better place in the car makes the front end feel so much lighter, my Gallardo I converted to 2wd many years ago and it is the way it should have been from the factory.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
Corvettes beating only other corvettes would be like watching paint dry to me. Watching them beat Porsche's, Ferrari's, BMW's, Fords and others is what racing is all about IMO.
The Corvette almost died for a number of reasons, many of them the huge turn around in company mentality where the focus became maximizing profits for the shareholder as espoused by GE head Jack Welch. If it isn't vastly profitable, kill it was his mentality and it ripped thru America's corporations like wildfire. The vette was almost a victim of that short sighted mentality.
Guys in suits answering to wall street aren't always the best people to look to for leadership.
The Corvette almost died for a number of reasons, many of them the huge turn around in company mentality where the focus became maximizing profits for the shareholder as espoused by GE head Jack Welch. If it isn't vastly profitable, kill it was his mentality and it ripped thru America's corporations like wildfire. The vette was almost a victim of that short sighted mentality.
Guys in suits answering to wall street aren't always the best people to look to for leadership.
1984-----51,547
1985-----39,729
1986-----35,109
1987-----30,632
1988-----22,789
1989-----26,412
1990-----26,410
1991-----20,639
1992-----22,058
1993-----20,479
1994-----23,330
1995-----20,742
1996-----21,536
No money was being made for GM selling an annual average of 22,611 Corvettes during the last 9 years of production. In 1992 the Corvette was established(for 9 years) and no suits reporting to Wall street did anything to the Corvette that caused it's sales to decline so much in those 9 years or the 4 years of sales after 1992.
People were not happy with the C4 Corvette, thus after the 'new' wore off, sales went into the toilet. Plain and simple.
Last edited by JoesC5; Apr 4, 2018 at 04:06 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 27,567
Likes: 99
From: San Diego
I have zero interest in a mid-engine Corvette and if there is no front engine Corvette offered the C7 will be my last modern vette. Being only 38, it would suck to not be able to get what I want and like because some people think they can force change that i didnt ask for, or want, on me.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,737
Likes: 551
From: North California
I have owned a Corvette every year since I was 21 and I am 42 now. When I got my first new Vette it was a 2000 hardtop and it was so much fun to drive, then I got a 2003 Z06 and it was great too. My next purchase was a 2004 Gallardo.
The Gallardo I much prefer the seating position vs the front engine cars. I have driven Vipers too and feel you just sit too far back in the car and feel a little bit disconnected. Also being ME the Gallardo has much smaller front tires than the Vette or Viper so it also doesn't follow the grooves on the highway. My Z06 and the Viper more so was annoying at times on the highway.
Then there is the turn in, having the weight in a better place in the car makes the front end feel so much lighter, my Gallardo I converted to 2wd many years ago and it is the way it should have been from the factory.
The Gallardo I much prefer the seating position vs the front engine cars. I have driven Vipers too and feel you just sit too far back in the car and feel a little bit disconnected. Also being ME the Gallardo has much smaller front tires than the Vette or Viper so it also doesn't follow the grooves on the highway. My Z06 and the Viper more so was annoying at times on the highway.
Then there is the turn in, having the weight in a better place in the car makes the front end feel so much lighter, my Gallardo I converted to 2wd many years ago and it is the way it should have been from the factory.
Drifting
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,505
Likes: 68
I have zero interest in a mid-engine Corvette and if there is no front engine Corvette offered the C7 will be my last modern vette. Being only 38, it would suck to not be able to get what I want and like because some people think they can force change that i didnt ask for, or want, on me.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
I have owned a Corvette every year since I was 21 and I am 42 now. When I got my first new Vette it was a 2000 hardtop and it was so much fun to drive, then I got a 2003 Z06 and it was great too. My next purchase was a 2004 Gallardo.
The Gallardo I much prefer the seating position vs the front engine cars. I have driven Vipers too and feel you just sit too far back in the car and feel a little bit disconnected. Also being ME the Gallardo has much smaller front tires than the Vette or Viper so it also doesn't follow the grooves on the highway. My Z06 and the Viper more so was annoying at times on the highway.
Then there is the turn in, having the weight in a better place in the car makes the front end feel so much lighter, my Gallardo I converted to 2wd many years ago and it is the way it should have been from the factory.
The Gallardo I much prefer the seating position vs the front engine cars. I have driven Vipers too and feel you just sit too far back in the car and feel a little bit disconnected. Also being ME the Gallardo has much smaller front tires than the Vette or Viper so it also doesn't follow the grooves on the highway. My Z06 and the Viper more so was annoying at times on the highway.
Then there is the turn in, having the weight in a better place in the car makes the front end feel so much lighter, my Gallardo I converted to 2wd many years ago and it is the way it should have been from the factory.
That's odd. I looked up the specs on the 2004 Gallardo and it says the front tires are 245mm wide, the same width as found on the C5, C6 and the C7 base cars.
True that the C6 and C7 Z06's have 275 or 285 mm wide fronts, but my C6 Z06 with it's 275 wide fronts don't track any different than the C5 I had with it's 245 fronts.
Heck, even the Escalade SUV comes with 285 mm fronts and they don't act squirrely driving down the road.
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Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,737
Likes: 551
From: North California
My second car was a Fiat X1/9 Mid-engine sports car. Road visibility was incredible as there was no engine obstructing the view and the handling was excellent. It was a tiny car but had two trucks one in front and one behind the engine compartment. For a car no bigger than an MG, it had a surprising amount of storage space. While I doubt that the C8 ME design will incorporate 2 trunks, I also doubt that GM will throw out so much storage space that we won’t be able to use the car for touring. We’ll have to wait and see.
However, it will not be as practical because the two compartments are not tied together, a full size suitcase will no longer fit. You could fly with custom suitcases to maximize available space.
The high end car will likely not have a front trunk because it can use it for hybrid drive 4wd or aero tricks.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
Or you could look at it like they've reached the full potential of FE design for performance and are switching to improve to be what the Corvette has been for a long time....supercar performance for a bargain. There's always the Camaro's and past Corvettes to choose from if you want to scratch that itch. I can't believe some are so against the change as it's what Zora wanted a long time ago and almost happened in the past. Are ME's terrible for daily drivers? I'm sure the Corvette team will still find a way to make ample storage room if they plan on selling a lot of units...
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,641
Likes: 2,690
From: Pacific Northwest
Where there’s a will, there’s a way. No matter how much (or little) trunk/frunk space the ME has, my wife and I will be road tripping in it. So many creative ways to pack, and so many ways to “stage” clothes on the way, and what decent motels do not have washers/dryers. And nice excuse to buy some replacement clothes half through the trip.
We do not road trip to be stylish. We road trip to drive curvy Corvette corners, see outrageous scenery, visit places, and to see friends. And where is it written that one pair of blue jeans needs to be washed during a 5,000 miler?
We do not road trip to be stylish. We road trip to drive curvy Corvette corners, see outrageous scenery, visit places, and to see friends. And where is it written that one pair of blue jeans needs to be washed during a 5,000 miler?
Last edited by elegant; Apr 4, 2018 at 05:04 PM.
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 145
Likes: 17
From: Centerton, AR
Porsche's "end-swapping" challenge was with the 911 models, all rear engine. I believe it was Ferdinand Alexander Porsche who said something like "the 911 is an ill conceived notion, developed to perfection."
Mid engine cars, with Low Polar Moment design, with all things equal (suspension design, tires and etc.), easily out perform any High Polar Moment designs. Furthermore, this inherent advantage allows advanced handling systems (e.g. Torque Vectoring, ABS, Traction Control) to perform with greater results. See: http://ironduke7.tripod.com/polarmoment.htm
I believe the C8 will have no problem outperforming a C7, year one. After all, it will be largely the same engineering group that delivered the C7 that will be delivering the C8, however they will be working with a superior configuration.
Mid engine cars, with Low Polar Moment design, with all things equal (suspension design, tires and etc.), easily out perform any High Polar Moment designs. Furthermore, this inherent advantage allows advanced handling systems (e.g. Torque Vectoring, ABS, Traction Control) to perform with greater results. See: http://ironduke7.tripod.com/polarmoment.htm
I believe the C8 will have no problem outperforming a C7, year one. After all, it will be largely the same engineering group that delivered the C7 that will be delivering the C8, however they will be working with a superior configuration.
The real benefit of a ME with the engine right behind the driver, (so the mass of the driver, engine and trans is centered between the front and rear axles), is low polar moment of inertia to allow it to enter and exit turns more quickly.
Think of it this way: Go into a gym and pick up a 45lb barbell with one hand in the center, and turn it with your wrist, then try to stop turning it. Then pick up a 45lb dumbbell with one hand and do the same thing. Even though they weigh the same, the dumbbell is easier to turn and stop turning because the mass is closer to the center.
For the same reasons, a mid-engine car can more readily enter and exit a turn than a FE car.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 854
Likes: 536
From: Florida
Where there’s a will, there’s a way. No matter how much (or little) trunk/frunk space the ME has, my wife and I will be road tripping in it. So many creative ways to pack, and so many ways to “stage” clothes on the way, and what decent motels do not have washers/dryers. And nice excuse to buy some replacement clothes half through the trip.
We do not road trip to be stylish. We road trip to drive curvy Corvette corners, see outrageous scenery, visit places, and to see friends. And where is it written that one pair of blue jeans needs to be washed during a 5,000 miler?
We do not road trip to be stylish. We road trip to drive curvy Corvette corners, see outrageous scenery, visit places, and to see friends. And where is it written that one pair of blue jeans needs to be washed during a 5,000 miler?
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
I agree.
The real benefit of a ME with the engine right behind the driver, (so the mass of the driver, engine and trans is centered between the front and rear axles), is low polar moment of inertia to allow it to enter and exit turns more quickly.
Think of it this way: Go into a gym and pick up a 45lb barbell with one hand in the center, and turn it with your wrist, then try to stop turning it. Then pick up a 45lb dumbbell with one hand and do the same thing. Even though they weigh the same, the dumbbell is easier to turn and stop turning because the mass is closer to the center.
For the same reasons, a mid-engine car can more readily enter and exit a turn than a FE car.
The real benefit of a ME with the engine right behind the driver, (so the mass of the driver, engine and trans is centered between the front and rear axles), is low polar moment of inertia to allow it to enter and exit turns more quickly.
Think of it this way: Go into a gym and pick up a 45lb barbell with one hand in the center, and turn it with your wrist, then try to stop turning it. Then pick up a 45lb dumbbell with one hand and do the same thing. Even though they weigh the same, the dumbbell is easier to turn and stop turning because the mass is closer to the center.
For the same reasons, a mid-engine car can more readily enter and exit a turn than a FE car.
In fact, the mid engine Corvette will have it's 200 + pound transmission behind the rear axle.
Last edited by JoesC5; Apr 4, 2018 at 07:35 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,737
Likes: 551
From: North California
Where there’s a will, there’s a way. No matter how much (or little) trunk/frunk space the ME has, my wife and I will be road tripping in it. So many creative ways to pack, and so many ways to “stage” clothes on the way, and what decent motels do not have washers/dryers. And nice excuse to buy some replacement clothes half through the trip.
We do not road trip to be stylish. We road trip to drive curvy Corvette corners, see outrageous scenery, visit places, and to see friends. And where is it written that one pair of blue jeans needs to be washed during a 5,000 miler?
We do not road trip to be stylish. We road trip to drive curvy Corvette corners, see outrageous scenery, visit places, and to see friends. And where is it written that one pair of blue jeans needs to be washed during a 5,000 miler?
Will you be able to pick up your friend from the airport if he has a check in luggage? doubt it
Will you be able to transport a full set of wheels in the car? doubt it
It doesn't matter how much will you have, if you can't fit something you can't fit it.
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 145
Likes: 17
From: Centerton, AR
But regardless, the point remains - more of the mass is closer to the center of the vehicle in a mid-engine car than a front engine car.
That's why a mid-engine car has a lower polar moment of inertia than a front-engine car, and why ME cars, all else being equal, are better handling.
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 14,742
Likes: 5,605
From: AZ
There are front mid-engine cars and there are rear mid-engine cars. Recent Corvettes have bee front mid-engine cars and perhaps the C8 will be a rear mid-engine car. I would expect the rear mid-engine car to have a smaller polar moment of inertia, though.
Many of the current rear mid-engine cars are not light weight like the C6 Z06 and many are much longer in external dimensions (over 180").
Many of the current rear mid-engine cars are not light weight like the C6 Z06 and many are much longer in external dimensions (over 180").
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,737
Likes: 551
From: North California
There are front mid-engine cars and there are rear mid-engine cars. Recent Corvettes have bee front mid-engine cars and perhaps the C8 will be a rear mid-engine car. I would expect the rear mid-engine car to have a smaller polar moment of inertia, though.
Many of the current rear mid-engine cars are not light weight like the C6 Z06 and many are much longer in external dimensions (over 180").
Many of the current rear mid-engine cars are not light weight like the C6 Z06 and many are much longer in external dimensions (over 180").
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 14,742
Likes: 5,605
From: AZ
Probably true, the C6 Z will still be lighter. However, that's not due to inherent strength of FMR platform relative to MR. It's mostly due to the market demands of 2018 vs. 2006, crash standards, CAFE, drivers relying more and more on TC, rev-match, etc. Some of the weight is needed to beef up the car to handle the extra power, and some is just improved aero. If you strip a C8 I think it would be equal or lighter than a C6 stripped.
Many of the RME cars are in the 3600-3800# range, excluding those with 4wd. The McLaren's are generally the lightweights of the group.
The C6 Z06 was under 3200#.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,737
Likes: 551
From: North California
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...mparo-2011.pdf
The two wheel drive Gallardo might be 200lbs heavier but that comes with a lot of good looking metal, relatively better interior, and a killer 550hp V10:
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...no-balboni.pdf