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Old Jun 27, 2021 | 11:04 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Phil1098
It was either start/stop or AFM, we got AFM. There is zero reason to change from this.
OK, that's good. I am cool with AFM, since i will be driving in M mode all the time and my understanding from reading material is that AFM is defeated and does not operate when running in manual mode
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Old Jun 27, 2021 | 11:08 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by madrob2020
Not the same animal but just bought a Ram 2021 Limited Longhorn with the stop/start. After about a month of driving I happened to look at engine monitors at a stop light (long one) & noticed no RPM indicated. Wasn't sure my model had it since OM says, some models. Since, I have looked for it at times & it is ABSOLUTELY seamless & instantaneous. Still not sure it supports good engine health but then again I'm not a vehicle engineer.
similar to you, i just bought a 2021 truck, a GMC 2500 HD Denali with the Duramax diesel and thank goodness it does NOT have that blasted start/stop feature. not sure if they don't apply it to all diesel engines or if I just got lucky!
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Old Jun 27, 2021 | 11:25 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Salmon057
I would never buy a car with that terrible feature !
only if i can disengage it....
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Old Jun 27, 2021 | 11:28 AM
  #44  
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I just don't like the car shudder when the motor restarts. Feels like something is wrong with the transmission (but isn't).
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Old Jun 27, 2021 | 11:34 AM
  #45  
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I'd take any of the other methods mentioned over the defective Battery Charging algorithm!
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Old Jun 27, 2021 | 11:50 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by msm859
While I agree that China and India have to reduce their coal use, I disagree that is an excuse for us to do nothing. Climate change is real. Man is causing it. The ONLY hope is for ALL to do something. The United States needs to be the leader, not the follower. I agree, that if ALL do not cooperate it may be a lost cause. But if the United States does not do anything, it will be a lost cause. So there is NO hope if we do not do our part. Waiting for everyone else is not an option - nor leadership.
As a Californian, I can assure you that your relatives would not be interested in your "gift". I am sure you could find something better in South Carolina.
The problem is thinking solar use in the US will solve the Worlds' CO2 problem is irrational!

In fact although I did not agree with was outlined in this Press Release based on an 1174 page report that was to become law in 2017 and require the Corvette (and other Sports cars ) have to achieve ~40 mpg it was based on reality.
https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov...iency-standard

Here were two points of the 4 key pointes listed at the end:
  • provide incentives for hybrid technologies for large pickups and for other technologies that achieve high fuel economy levels on large pickups;
  • provide incentives for natural gas vehicles;
Starting with Natural Gas. The US has ~100 years reserves. Instead of using Coal we can deliver liquid natural gas to China and India (I believe we have already started in India as we have been doing to Europe.) The late T. Boone Pickens was trying to get support to put natural gas filling stations on Interstates (much cheaper than EV power stations all over) and have 18 wheels use it as a much cleaner energy source (they will never be EVs). Large diesel engines can easilly be converted. Heck RR engines are already using it for part of their power. You may not know it but California won't allow ships to come into a port using their normal oil power. Some are converting to natural gas just for port use. Proven technology.

Instead of Germany buying oil from Russia (in a many billion dollar pipeline they paid for) we could be supplying them with liquid natural gas. Europe has limited oil and gas and were buying liquid natural gas from unstable source- Libya! As "bad" as some make the US out to be we're FAR better! I find it funny France gets ~75% of their power from Nuclear and Germany does not allow it! Could be used in the US but IMO we'll never build another plant and the life extension of existing plants is getting close to having them shut down. Shame.

Hybrids (as that press release noted and that 1174 page government report mpg goals are mostly based on) do work. Can cut exhaust emissions over half. No not zero, but producing electricity is NOT zero either! Not at night when there is no sun! As far a South Carolina we're subsidizing solar power more than even California. We provide the same $/Kw to a producer as you pay (or did.) In CA it's only ~half. I live in a rural area and a neighbor has 1500 acers now all in solar cells as he can make more than growing crops. Power companies are installing Natural Gas powered huge turbines for not just peak shaving as they are cheaper to buy and can be installed quickly compared to a stream power plant!

We'll see what results. BUT "hoping" all others stop using coal to produce electrical power or most countries in the World won't continue to operate their cars and inefficient, polluting motor scooters with Middle East, Russian etc oil is silly!

Last edited by JerryU; Jun 28, 2021 at 07:13 AM.
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Old Jun 27, 2021 | 01:35 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Majestic94
I can see it both ways. I agree that somebody has to make the first move, but I can also see that it’s not going to make a difference if the whole world doesn’t play by the same rules.
If we took it as seriously as we should we’d have to make some much bigger lifestyle changes such as outlawing sports cars in general and making everybody ride bikes and live closer to work. No more ordering cheap Chinese stuff from Amazon or buying imported foods or taking a long distance vacation. Doing a couple token gestures like making EV sports cars and putting stop start on gas engines is pretty negligible in terms of global emissions though they do help improve pollution locally.
Since nobody has agreed to any emissions agreements that actually disincentivize noncompliance, countries who blow it off would actually benefit from a much easier to develop economy and resulting power at the expense of everybody else. While we would commit to making more expensive more sustainable products, the products we’d actually buy would be the cheaper and more unsustainable products made in foreign countries who chose not to participate. It’s pretty much all of nothing otherwise you just shift the same carbon around to a different part of the planet while paying the largest emitters to do so.
Then we add a carbon tax on imported products. I realize it is not a simple solution, but being wrong on this can be catastrophic and we should be more aggressive in looking for solutions. I don't think anything should be off the table - including nuclear.
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Old Jun 27, 2021 | 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by msm859
Then we add a carbon tax on imported products. I realize it is not a simple solution, but being wrong on this can be catastrophic and we should be more aggressive in looking for solutions. I don't think anything should be off the table - including nuclear.
I’m not against the idea, but I don’t see anybody talking about it globally.
If we only carbon tax ourselves, then we’re keeping carbon the same but supporting somebody else’s economy,
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Old Jun 28, 2021 | 01:21 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by msm859
Even if the electricity comes from burning coal, an electric car is cleaner. https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikesco...h=21e049d32320

In addition, as the electricity becomes "greener" the BEV will become greener. You can never say that about an ICE vehicle.
Y'all keep forgetting about the batteries though. From NYTimes, back in March, 2021:
Like many other batteries, the lithium-ion cells that power most electric vehicles rely on raw materials — like cobalt, lithium and rare earth elements — that have been linked to grave environmental and human rights concerns. Cobalt has been especially problematic.

Mining cobalt produces hazardous tailings and slags that can leach into the environment, and studies have found high exposure in nearby communities, especially among children, to cobalt and other metals. Extracting the metals from their ores also requires a process called smelting, which can emit sulfur oxide and other harmful air pollution.

And as much as 70 percent of the world’s cobalt supply is mined in the Democratic Republic of Congo, a substantial proportion in unregulated “artisanal” mines where workers — including many children — dig the metal from the earth using only hand tools at great risk to their health and safety, human rights groups warn.

The world’s lithium is either mined in Australia or from salt flats in the Andean regions of Argentina, Bolivia and Chile, operations that use large amounts of groundwater to pump out the brines, drawing down the water available to Indigenous farmers and herders. The water required for producing batteries has meant that manufacturing electric vehicles is about 50 percent more water intensive than traditional internal combustion engines. Deposits of rare earths, concentrated in China, often contain radioactive substances that can emit radioactive water and dust.

Focusing first on cobalt, automakers and other manufacturers have committed to eliminating “artisanal” cobalt from their supply chains, and have also said they will develop batteries that decrease, or do away with, cobalt altogether. But that technology is still in development, and the prevalence of these mines means these commitments “aren’t realistic,” said Mickaël Daudin of Pact, a nonprofit organization that works with mining communities in Africa.

Instead, manufacturers need to work with these mines to lessen their environmental footprint and make sure miners are working in safe conditions. If companies acted responsibly, the rise of electric vehicles would be a great opportunity for countries like Congo. But if they don’t, “they will put the environment, and many, many miners’ lives at risk.”
Recycling could be better

As earlier generations of electric vehicles start to reach the end of their lives, preventing a pileup of spent batteries looms as a challenge.
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Old Jun 28, 2021 | 02:00 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Majestic94
That was a concern when C7 came out, but those fears really never materialized.
Due to modern engineering and manufacturing advancements, a complicated modern engine is far more reliable than an old simple engine.
Older simpler engines were more reliable.
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Old Jun 28, 2021 | 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by sprayer
Older simpler engines were more reliable.
Yugos were much more simple, that didn’t make them reliable. So were old British cars.

The average car today is much more reliable than simpler cars from simplistic times. The odometers even go past 6 digits now.
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Old Jun 28, 2021 | 08:34 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by sprayer
Older simpler engines were more reliable.
I would suggest that the warranties give an insight as to the reliability. Remember back in the day when warranties were 12 months?

Granted, older, simpler engines were much easier to work on.
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Old Jun 28, 2021 | 09:08 AM
  #53  
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In some sense newer vehicles are more reliable, but forget about trying to fix one when something breaks. Without the dedicated electronics required for diagnosis...., it is no longer in the realm of DIY on an engine compartment that had room and an easily diagnosed engine component structure. It's not your grandfather's car anymore. Progress.
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Old Jun 28, 2021 | 11:16 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Majestic94
I’m not against the idea, but I don’t see anybody talking about it globally.
If we only carbon tax ourselves, then we’re keeping carbon the same but supporting somebody else’s economy,
Except I was talking about a carbon tax as an example against "widgets" we buy from China that are cheaper because they use cheap electricity from burning coal. We need to "incentivize" them to stop burning coal. Just like we need to stop burning coal in this country.
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Old Jun 28, 2021 | 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by msm859
Except I was talking about a carbon tax as an example against "widgets" we buy from China that are cheaper because they use cheap electricity from burning coal. We need to "incentivize" them to stop burning coal. Just like we need to stop burning coal in this country.
No argument there, but I don’t see that being pitched by any actual politician.
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Old Jun 28, 2021 | 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by C8J
In some sense newer vehicles are more reliable, but forget about trying to fix one when something breaks. Without the dedicated electronics required for diagnosis...., it is no longer in the realm of DIY on an engine compartment that had room and an easily diagnosed engine component structure. It's not your grandfather's car anymore. Progress.
I disagree for the most part. I find it much easier pulling up codes and swapping modules than messing with carbs and rebuilding drum brakes. It helps that there’s now forums and YouTube videos and schematics and stuff online.

One reason it was easy to work on old cars is because they required so much more maintenance and broke down so often you got plenty of hands on training. You couldn’t just own a car, you had to know how it worked inside and out.

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Old Jun 28, 2021 | 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by JerryU
Not only that, many cars are using a technique that requires little starter motor power! They stop the engine right after an ignition cycle with piston near TDC and the combustion pressure is held until starting when it helps turn the engine to start. (Reminded of WWII engines that could be started with a large blank gun shell!) But I do chuckle about starter motor BS! Heck the 502 BB in my street rod is half the size of normal starters and has a 3:1 gear reduction. Lots of power and fits with my long tube headers. Tesla etc has motors that are much more powerful!!
In fact our 2021 BMW X5 SUV is the wife's 3rd. Stop/Start is so unobtrusive on all 3 we never shut it off. It also has a method of some small about of braking energy recovery (which wastes about 25% of all energy that gets to the rear wheels!) . It only turns on the alternator on when costing or braking. It has a 2nd AGM battery.

FWIW, Start Stop is so unobtrusive in the BMW with the sound system playing can't tell the engine is shut off. It starts as soon as your foot is off the brake BEFORE it's on the throttle. Don't hear a starter motor! Daughter in OH. who now has our 2018 BMW X5 SUV, travels ~45 miles to work and indicates that efficient BMW inline 6 (300 hp with it's twin turbochargers) is getting ~5 mpg better than her old similar size SUV! Yep that small amount of braking energy recovery of turning on the alternator ONLY when coasting and braking helps! The larger AMG battery supplies the large amount of electrical power used in todays cars! Yep it car be done right!

until you need a battery from BMW

PERFORMANCE BATTERY

For high powered and advanced vehicles that require additional power due to vehicle options, specifications and custom configurations.
$485
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Old Jun 28, 2021 | 03:25 PM
  #58  
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^^^
Much cheaper than the Porsche Cayenne the wife had prior to her 1st BMW X5 (See Sidebar!) In fact watched BMW Tech replace one in her 1st X5 SUV free of charge as part of a recall. No issues with her 2018, they switched to an AGM!

SIDEBAR
Funny story with the Porsche battery. Was monitoring my 2014 C7 battery at the time and comparing with her Cayenne. The Cayenne's was reading low and reached ~11.5 when I thought best get a new one. Internet showed you had to remove (not just tilt) the driver's side seat. Lots of plastic trim around the bottom that it was mentioned easy to break. Lots of seat motor plugs to disconnect. Even bought a special very large Torx socket to remove the seat.

But granddaughter was going to a large hose show in TN to compete and we decided to go. Was concerned about the battery as would not let any repair facility change the battery if needed on the trip. Having Porsche, on the last oil change (expensive) say you'll need new brakes and that will cost $2600 (pads and rotors looked OK to me) with the battery reading ~11.5 volts and needing to go to TN to see granddaughter said to my wife lets go to the Chevy/BMW/Mercedes dealer and see what they will give for the Cayenne.

Went to the car wash in town before going to the Dealer. Fellow said nice car, too bad a battery will cost $900! I said how do you know? He said another fellow with one just said that is what his cost! I thought that comment was an Omen! Pulled into the dealer with the intent of getting a Mecedes SUV as she had a Mercedes before. Salesman came out and a quick look at the very boxy Mercedes SUV turned off the wife. However she liked the BMW X5 SUV. They offered a very good trade-in (I had searched Black Book before going to town.) We drove home with a new BMW!

BTW, if we keep the BMW until it needs a battery will buy one on the Net at much lower price than from them! Odds are we'll trade this on a new one before that!

Last edited by JerryU; Jun 28, 2021 at 03:29 PM.
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