Best air filter
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,039
Likes: 2,591
From: Del Boca Vista FL
Changed air filter out at 8,000 miles due to “off roading” concern on my part. Dealership tech said good move on my part as there were sand and dirt particles in the filter housing and in the outer filter media itself. He returned the original filter to me and installed a new GM stock replacement filter. This one will last longer as we won’t be off roading in the near future.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 668
From: Orange County, CA
Ferrari Enzo - paper filter
Lamborghini Aventador - paper filters
Pagani Zonda - paper filter, 4 million dollar car
I dont think your view of paper = manufacturers cheapening out carries any weight
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 12,351
Likes: 14,184
From: Central Illinois
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 141
Likes: 81
From: New Jersey
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 34,982
Likes: 12,383
From: NE South Carolina
“Aside from the exhaust, there is no greater noise source on a performance vehicle than the intake system. Induction systems generally have many tuning elements that ensure the quality of the sound emanating from it are pleasing and harmonious with the exhaust note. These tuning elements also dampen the sound energy to help with pass-by legal noise requirements. Aftermarket companies don't have to worry about it, but as the OEM, we must guarantee that our products are quiet enough to be driven at full throttle by a microphone by the side of the road and meet certain decibel levels. There are pass-by laws in many states and pretty universal around the world. As with many of the questions on this forum, all vehicle design is a balance of trade-offs. We do what is legal and right for the vast majority of customers. Aftermarket companies offer products that strike a different balance that might appeal to some folks.”
Hmm think other companies might use cheap paper for the same reasons as GM!?
Then there is Walt White Coupe who I thanked for finding that Donaldson Technical paper:
Top 5 Reasons Fine Fiber Filters Are Worth It | Donaldson Industrial Dust, Fume & Mist
I read it and looks like no one else did! Sounds like the material Attach Blue said they use. And perhaps what aFe and K&N use for their dry filters. Yep as I said gave talks with Donaldson about welding fume control systems and some folks talked about filter materials. (However the audience just wanted to know what they can use, which is what I presented BUT did listen to the other presentations.)
Yep, and HALLTECH filtration system that dyno showed 17 hp gain, is just BS because they don't know cheap paper filters are better.
And the info I posted of the fellow responding to that stupid video where he poured sand on the filter BUT never had any air flow.Probably tried and it sand blasted a hole in the Cheap Paper! (BTW there are other reports of paper filter failures having holes caused by sand and why aFe sell a special filter for off-road use!) I'll repeat:
Warren Lucier
"From an old mechanic and a retired engineer. The best air filter there ever was is an oil bath type and they were replaced with the throwaway paper elements (mid 1960's) due to servicing the oil bath was messy and time (money) consuming. The problem with paper elements is quality and they don't last long; I've seen the sand get into them and cut right through the paper, not good. The K&N filters were invented by a desert racer who went through a lot of engines due to the paper elements downfall and there is no way an oil bath would work in that environment, due to vehicle movement. Take a look at the air inlet location, airbox design and where you drive (asphalt, sand or high dust) for a real world analysis as to what may come towards the air filter to begin with. Hope this helps and it's a free world to choose which way you want to go."
And hard to forget when the engineer who toured my Local ASME Section through the large WIX filter plant when asked by one of our members “Why do you use paper, it that the best material? He said it’s cheap!"
But as I said, there have been these foolish anecdotal comments since I mentioned oiled cotton when I had my C6 in 2007.Folks will believe what they wish while some of us look carefully at the facts and like the extra sucking sound of lower restriction filters! Yep those "liking" your post won't read this either rather not have input that counters what they already "know" with no facts!
Naw, Can't Be Any Good! Even 7 Layers Not As Good As Cheap Paper!
PS: What I Installed ONLY Has 5 Layers!
Last edited by JerryU; Aug 31, 2021 at 07:53 AM.
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 12,351
Likes: 14,184
From: Central Illinois
"From an old mechanic and a retired engineer. The best air filter there ever was is an oil bath type and they were replaced with the throwaway paper elements (mid 1960's) due to servicing the oil bath was messy and time (money) consuming. The problem with paper elements is quality and they don't last long; I've seen the sand get into them and cut right through the paper, not good. The K&N filters were invented by a desert racer who went through a lot of engines due to the paper elements downfall and there is no way an oil bath would work in that environment, due to vehicle movement. Take a look at the air inlet location, airbox design and where you drive (asphalt, sand or high dust) for a real world analysis as to what may come towards the air filter to begin with. Hope this helps and it's a free world to choose which way you want to go."
On one hand you base your argument on the element being used because it's cheap, and when someone posts examples of cars that use them that have tires alone that cost over $20k, (a clear and obvious indication that the manufacturer wasn't considering cost, especially something as trivial in cost as an air filter) you have absolutely no reply or explanation, just more old out of date crap. You highlight the K&N BS like it's gospel, what about the video of the K&N user that was posted that it looked like the engine had virtually no filter in place? Keep picking and choosing to support your argument. Oh, pass me the snake oil please.
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 34,982
Likes: 12,383
From: NE South Carolina
^^^
Didn't say everything I read is gospel. but I do look at facts.
Really don't think about "my creditability" on the Forum, call it like I see it. In fact where my credibility does matter is with our industry. Lets see can't be too bad as I have been asked to Nominate two folks for volunteer positions at our annual convention at McCormick Place in two weeks. One for VP and the other Treasurer! Both volunteer positions! Guess this 79 year old can't be too bad!
I may have a chance between meetings and committed events (have Past President's Lunch and evening Dinner to intro new President and Roast outgoing, Counselor's and Foundation Lunches in addition to several hour Nomination meeting) to talk with the Donaldson filter engineers and see what they have to say (have you read the tech paper that Walt White Coupe posted? That 7 layer aFe filter is made just for off-road where a number of folks have said their cheap paper filter got holes etc! )
Wife gets to shop with her friends! Thousands of exhibitors, we completely fill up McCormick!
Didn't say everything I read is gospel. but I do look at facts.
Really don't think about "my creditability" on the Forum, call it like I see it. In fact where my credibility does matter is with our industry. Lets see can't be too bad as I have been asked to Nominate two folks for volunteer positions at our annual convention at McCormick Place in two weeks. One for VP and the other Treasurer! Both volunteer positions! Guess this 79 year old can't be too bad!
I may have a chance between meetings and committed events (have Past President's Lunch and evening Dinner to intro new President and Roast outgoing, Counselor's and Foundation Lunches in addition to several hour Nomination meeting) to talk with the Donaldson filter engineers and see what they have to say (have you read the tech paper that Walt White Coupe posted? That 7 layer aFe filter is made just for off-road where a number of folks have said their cheap paper filter got holes etc! )
Wife gets to shop with her friends! Thousands of exhibitors, we completely fill up McCormick!
Last edited by JerryU; Aug 31, 2021 at 08:38 AM.
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Race Director
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 12,351
Likes: 14,184
From: Central Illinois
Good luck coming to Chicago, our governor dictator has announced Illinois is spiraling out of control with COVID (when it's not) just so he can have his fat thumb on everyone's throat and think he's in CONTROL.
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 34,982
Likes: 12,383
From: NE South Carolina
^^^
Thanks! It's a concern but wife and I both got our 3rd Pfizer shot mainly because of Chicago! Masks are required and I'll wear at all times. Will pull down when nominating! Frankly don't think I will spend much time on the Show Floor!
Thanks! It's a concern but wife and I both got our 3rd Pfizer shot mainly because of Chicago! Masks are required and I'll wear at all times. Will pull down when nominating! Frankly don't think I will spend much time on the Show Floor!
Last edited by JerryU; Aug 31, 2021 at 08:44 AM.
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 34,982
Likes: 12,383
From: NE South Carolina
^^^
Have N95 masks I'll for sure use on the airplane and IF I go on the Show Floor. Other than that will wear my black mask with with business logo and extra filter insert daughter bought for me! Folks ask what logo means and have chance to sell some of my patented product!
PS: Room to add another filter in that inside pocket! Will consider!
Have N95 masks I'll for sure use on the airplane and IF I go on the Show Floor. Other than that will wear my black mask with with business logo and extra filter insert daughter bought for me! Folks ask what logo means and have chance to sell some of my patented product!
PS: Room to add another filter in that inside pocket! Will consider!
Last edited by JerryU; Aug 31, 2021 at 09:02 AM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,163
Likes: 686
From: SUFFIELD CONNECTICUT
Turning your air cleaner lid upside down on your 73 Monte Carlo makes a lot of noise too, but it doesn't make any more power. Oiled filter makers don't give a **** how much dirt they let into your engine either as they don't care if your motor wears out prematurely. The OEM filter obviously allows plenty of clean air in, the rest is just snake oil BS.
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 12,351
Likes: 14,184
From: Central Illinois
^^^
Have N95 masks I'll for sure use on the airplane and IF I go on the Show Floor. Other than that will wear my black mask with with business logo and extra filter insert daughter bought for me! Folks ask what logo means and have chance to sell some of my patented product!
PS: Room to add another filter in that inside pocket! Will consider!
Have N95 masks I'll for sure use on the airplane and IF I go on the Show Floor. Other than that will wear my black mask with with business logo and extra filter insert daughter bought for me! Folks ask what logo means and have chance to sell some of my patented product!
PS: Room to add another filter in that inside pocket! Will consider!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,559
Likes: 4,501
From: North Dallas 40 TX
Jerry, I note you keep talking about the aFe dual cone filter system? Have you read their own results? Did you wonder why they used different levels of vacuum in the different tests between their own products. It appears to me that their single filter system flows better than their dual cone system.
The other thing not mentioned about using oiled filters, that not a problem with the the old oil bath filters is MAF sensor contamination. Oil going into your engine was no problem, heck people used to pour Marvel Mystery oil right into their carbs.
You will say they over oiled. Yeah maybe, but that is real life. The instructions I read on oiling are a bit vague. And if you under oil, how good is the filter?
If manufacturers wanted engender trust, they would run, and publish tests to the exact same standards as the OEM. However, they don’t. They play games with the conditions, or the particulates, I am always left to wonder why.
The other thing not mentioned about using oiled filters, that not a problem with the the old oil bath filters is MAF sensor contamination. Oil going into your engine was no problem, heck people used to pour Marvel Mystery oil right into their carbs.
You will say they over oiled. Yeah maybe, but that is real life. The instructions I read on oiling are a bit vague. And if you under oil, how good is the filter?
If manufacturers wanted engender trust, they would run, and publish tests to the exact same standards as the OEM. However, they don’t. They play games with the conditions, or the particulates, I am always left to wonder why.
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 34,982
Likes: 12,383
From: NE South Carolina
Jerry, I note you keep talking about the aFe dual cone filter system? Have you read their own results? Did you wonder why they used different levels of vacuum in the different tests between their own products. It appears to me that their single filter system flows better than their dual cone system.
The other thing not mentioned about using oiled filters, that not a problem with the the old oil bath filters is MAF sensor contamination. Oil going into your engine was no problem, heck people used to pour Marvel Mystery oil right into their carbs.
You will say they over oiled. Yeah maybe, but that is real life. The instructions I read on oiling are a bit vague. And if you under oil, how good is the filter?
If manufacturers wanted engender trust, they would run, and publish tests to the exact same standards as the OEM. However, they don’t. They play games with the conditions, or the particulates, I am always left to wonder why.
The other thing not mentioned about using oiled filters, that not a problem with the the old oil bath filters is MAF sensor contamination. Oil going into your engine was no problem, heck people used to pour Marvel Mystery oil right into their carbs.
You will say they over oiled. Yeah maybe, but that is real life. The instructions I read on oiling are a bit vague. And if you under oil, how good is the filter?
If manufacturers wanted engender trust, they would run, and publish tests to the exact same standards as the OEM. However, they don’t. They play games with the conditions, or the particulates, I am always left to wonder why.
The instructions I provide in my PDF for reoiling are clear as can be. Just takes a little longer. Easy to see when the material is properly oiled as they color the oil.. As when you get the oiled filtered it's preoiled and you don't feel the oil.
But that is what folks sell the dry filters for those who are afraid! In 6 Vettes has not bee none issue! Frankly I laughed at folks who had oil dripping from their C7 filter because the dealer tech overfilled and oil burped out with the crackcase air to the air intake. No one mentioned their dealer changed the MAF which should have been done, IMO. I never had the issue as I didn't trust the dealer tech to lift my C7 or change my oil. Did it myself!
Last edited by JerryU; Aug 31, 2021 at 09:27 AM.
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 12,351
Likes: 14,184
From: Central Illinois
You mean old school shade tree guys. There are PLENTY of true CAR GUYS that know better and leave the filter alone.
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 12,351
Likes: 14,184
From: Central Illinois
At what point does Pro-GUARD 7 become restrictive? SEVEN layers, each one having smaller openings than the previous. Ultimately, isn't the most restrictive layer what will drive the restriction? All filters are a balance between filtration and restriction. It's why number of pleats matter too because stretched out, you have more surface area. Why hasn't anyone explained why Ferrari, Bugatti, and Pagani chose to use paper? Are they afraid the massive increase in performance will scare their buyers?
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,398
Likes: 8,559
Can you summarize the specific goals or requirements that might drive me to select a non OEM filter, in terms of a measurable benefit? So far from this thread, what I see is marginal increase in fuel mileage, marginal increase in horsepower, marginal increase in engine life. In exchange for that, it looks like maybe the higher flow cleaners must be changed or cleaned more often, and, for oiled ones, requires an additional oiling procedure. And, in some cases, it appears that the there might even be less filtering, maybe leading to a marginal reduction in engine life.