MRCS or NOT
Team Owner
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LOL, I'll leave it to others to try to set you straight, if that's even possible, but I will try to plug up one of the gaping holes in your logic. Why is it that one can only have PTM with MSRC? Could it be that PTM is only beneficial with MSRC as an integral component? Answer: yes.
Perhaps you aren't even aware that one of the PTM settings (PTM/Track Wet) puts MSRC in the softest setting (Tour). Other PTM settings utilize MSRC Sport. I have been to Spring Mt. 3 times, and they don't even allow students to use the most aggressive PTM setting.
Here's a quote from the link below for the new MSRC 4.0 system. It is true no matter which MSRC setting one chooses.
"Wheel accelerometers read the road up to 1,000 times per second, triggering changes in the magnetic charge within the fluid that can alter the damping rates of the shocks almost instantly."
https://media.cadillac.com/media/us/...echnology.html
Perhaps you aren't even aware that one of the PTM settings (PTM/Track Wet) puts MSRC in the softest setting (Tour). Other PTM settings utilize MSRC Sport. I have been to Spring Mt. 3 times, and they don't even allow students to use the most aggressive PTM setting.
Here's a quote from the link below for the new MSRC 4.0 system. It is true no matter which MSRC setting one chooses.
"Wheel accelerometers read the road up to 1,000 times per second, triggering changes in the magnetic charge within the fluid that can alter the damping rates of the shocks almost instantly."
https://media.cadillac.com/media/us/...echnology.html
Last edited by Foosh; Dec 8, 2021 at 10:29 AM.
Safety Car
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LOL, I'll leave to others to try to set you straight, if that's even possible, but I will try to plug up one of the gaping holes in your logic. Why is it that one can only have PTM with MSRC? Could it be that PTM is only beneficial with MSRC as an integral component? Answer: yes.
Perhaps you aren't even aware that one of the PTM settings (PTM/Track Wet) puts MSRC in the softest setting (Tour).
Perhaps you aren't even aware that one of the PTM settings (PTM/Track Wet) puts MSRC in the softest setting (Tour).
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2016
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From: Garden Valley CA
I’m going to guess that you can’t cite any reference to back up your statement and are just going off what you think you know so let’s look at your logic for a minute.
If MSRC adjust on the fly then I would have my cake and eat it to in every situation. It would be a tight suspension that prevents diving and rolling, optimized for cornering and all the benefits of a tight suspension without the harsh ride. If it always worked with on the fly adjustments it would only need to be on or off (preferably just on).
Why on Earth would I want the harsh ride of a track suspension when the system can control pitch and roll and soak up the bumps?
Why would I want the car to pitching rolling like a boat around corners just to enjoy a soft suspension when the system can do both?
Under what circumstances do you want every other bump to come through or just a little bit of slop in your cornering?
As far as why Spring Mountain uses it on Z-51’s I suspect it serves different functionality when tuned with PTM. I haven’t been to the school yet, but I bet the car is left in track mode and they just play with different PTM modes.
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If MSRC adjust on the fly then I would have my cake and eat it to in every situation. It would be a tight suspension that prevents diving and rolling, optimized for cornering and all the benefits of a tight suspension without the harsh ride. If it always worked with on the fly adjustments it would only need to be on or off (preferably just on).
Why on Earth would I want the harsh ride of a track suspension when the system can control pitch and roll and soak up the bumps?
Why would I want the car to pitching rolling like a boat around corners just to enjoy a soft suspension when the system can do both?
Under what circumstances do you want every other bump to come through or just a little bit of slop in your cornering?
As far as why Spring Mountain uses it on Z-51’s I suspect it serves different functionality when tuned with PTM. I haven’t been to the school yet, but I bet the car is left in track mode and they just play with different PTM modes.
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Yes, if were absolutely perfect there would be no need for different settings. But MSRC can only do so much within the bounds of the rest of the suspension system.
In general, adding MSRC to the base allows you to stiffen up the suspension for spirited driving. Adding MSRC to the stiffer suspension of a Z51 allows you to dial in some more comfort for touring while allowing the best performance and feedback on the track or spirited street driving.
MSRC on the base or Z51 is constantly adjusting for conditions and increases the bandwidth of the suspension system.
Team Owner
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PTM and MSRC serve two different, but related purposes. However, there can be no PTM without MSRC. It's necessary to provide PTM's benefits. Thus, the only model available with PTM is Z51. However, there are Z51s without PTM.
GM did exactly the same thing with C7. MSRC was originally only available on Z51 because it forced many into ordering more expensive options in launch years. Because MSRC has other benefits besides PTM, it was later offered on base cars.
Bottom line, MSRC is about both performance and comfort, with or without PTM, which provides a higher level of performance and provides settings appropriate to a driver's skill level. PTM can make less skilled drivers better than they would be otherwise.
GM did exactly the same thing with C7. MSRC was originally only available on Z51 because it forced many into ordering more expensive options in launch years. Because MSRC has other benefits besides PTM, it was later offered on base cars.
Bottom line, MSRC is about both performance and comfort, with or without PTM, which provides a higher level of performance and provides settings appropriate to a driver's skill level. PTM can make less skilled drivers better than they would be otherwise.
Last edited by Foosh; Dec 8, 2021 at 10:55 AM.
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PTM and MSRC serve two different, but related purposes. However, there can be no PTM without MSRC. It's necessary to provide PTM's benefits. Thus, the only model available with PTM is Z51. However, there are Z51s without PTM.
GM did exactly the same thing with C7. MSRC was originally only available on Z51 because it forced many into ordering more expensive options in launch years. Because MSRC has other benefits besides PTM, it was later offered on base cars.
Bottom line, MSRC is about both performance and comfort, with or without PTM, which provides a higher level of performance and provides settings appropriate to a driver's skill level. PTM can make less skilled drivers better than they would be otherwise.
GM did exactly the same thing with C7. MSRC was originally only available on Z51 because it forced many into ordering more expensive options in launch years. Because MSRC has other benefits besides PTM, it was later offered on base cars.
Bottom line, MSRC is about both performance and comfort, with or without PTM, which provides a higher level of performance and provides settings appropriate to a driver's skill level. PTM can make less skilled drivers better than they would be otherwise.
I don’t have a Z-51 and I’m not on the track. My car is comfortable all the time and handles the exact same in either sport or tour. I don’t need to be a more skilled at driving on the street. I’m not pushing even a fraction of the capability of the car.
Bottom line; just like Z-51 in general, if you’re driving the C8 on the street only, mag ride is not very useful.
Safety Car
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From: Bay Area CA
I don’t disagree that PTM was designed for and intended to be used on the track in conjunction with MSRC. I’m sure they offer it to non Z-51 cars just like they do aero packages for cars that will never see a track. In the past you could get a Z06 with a Z07 package in a soft top convertible that pretty much no track will even allow. GM is happy to sell their customers what they want even if their customers’ wants don’t make any damn sense.
I don’t have a Z-51 and I’m not on the track. My car is comfortable all the time and handles the exact same in either sport or tour. I don’t need to be a more skilled at driving on the street. I’m not pushing even a fraction of the capability of the car.
Bottom line; just like Z-51 in general, if you’re driving the C8 on the street only, mag ride is not very useful.
I don’t have a Z-51 and I’m not on the track. My car is comfortable all the time and handles the exact same in either sport or tour. I don’t need to be a more skilled at driving on the street. I’m not pushing even a fraction of the capability of the car.
Bottom line; just like Z-51 in general, if you’re driving the C8 on the street only, mag ride is not very useful.
Foosh and RKCLR have thoroughly expained both PTM and MSRC, so let's put it to rest.
Your bottom line is only your opinion which is not shared amoung others, including GM engineers.
Last edited by Mike's LS3; Dec 8, 2021 at 12:59 PM.
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If it always worked with on the fly adjustments it would only need to be on or off (preferably just on).
Why on Earth would I want the harsh ride of a track suspension when the system can control pitch and roll and soak up the bumps?
Why would I want the car to pitching rolling like a boat around corners just to enjoy a soft suspension when the system can do both?
Under what circumstances do you want every other bump to come through or just a little bit of slop in your cornering?
.
Why on Earth would I want the harsh ride of a track suspension when the system can control pitch and roll and soak up the bumps?
Why would I want the car to pitching rolling like a boat around corners just to enjoy a soft suspension when the system can do both?
Under what circumstances do you want every other bump to come through or just a little bit of slop in your cornering?
.
At least that's how I understand it from what I've been reading.
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
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Yes, you get it, he doesn't.
Every GM press release and auto media discussion of the subject since 2003 (when it was introduced on the C5) explains how MSRC can make "thousands of adjustments a second." Yet we still have folks claiming the system "locks the dampers into one setting," and "cannot make on the fly adjustments."
Check out the GM video blast from the past almost 2 decades ago.
That was MSRC 1.0, and the C8 system is MSRC 4.0. It has become more capable with every generation as a result of ever more sophisticated algorithms and substantially more sensor data now feeding them.
Every GM press release and auto media discussion of the subject since 2003 (when it was introduced on the C5) explains how MSRC can make "thousands of adjustments a second." Yet we still have folks claiming the system "locks the dampers into one setting," and "cannot make on the fly adjustments."
Check out the GM video blast from the past almost 2 decades ago.
That was MSRC 1.0, and the C8 system is MSRC 4.0. It has become more capable with every generation as a result of ever more sophisticated algorithms and substantially more sensor data now feeding them.
Last edited by Foosh; Dec 8, 2021 at 02:07 PM.
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Again, I already said that. For the record nobody is explaining anything, they’re also stating their opinion on what they think it’s doing aside from the common agreement it seems to be primarily intended for PTM on Z-51. But thanks for sharing.
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If I understand what you're saying here correctly, this would only be possible if the car could predict your wants matched to driving area and conditions. The car does not know whether you prefer a softer ride for this journey or a firmer one. It doesn't know whether you're about to attack the upcoming corners or if you're just out for a leisurely drive to enjoy the scenery. The different settings allow you to essentially state your intent - track is full on attack mode, so you want to be as stiff and communicative as possible with minimal soaking of imperfections. Minor imperfections that might upset a fixed suspension can be absorbed but medium ones you'll definitely notice. Tour means you're out on a leisurely drive, even if you're on a track. Maybe you're just doing a parade lap. So absorb as many imperfections as possible. In either case, the system is always working to be more or less firm around changing road surface conditions, but you get to choose the range in each setting - the firmest it will adjust to in tour is still softer than the softest it will allow in track. Sport's softest setting overlaps with Tour's firmest setting, and is firmest setting overlaps with Track's softest.
At least that's how I understand it from what I've been reading.
At least that's how I understand it from what I've been reading.
Safety Car
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Yes, you get it, he doesn't.
Every GM press release and auto media discussion of the subject since 2003 (when it was introduced on the C5) explains how MSRC can make "thousands of adjustments a second." Yet we still have folks claiming the system "locks the dampers into one setting," and "cannot make on the fly adjustments."
Check out the GM video blast from the past almost 2 decades ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48m1_otpD9c
That was MSRC 1.0, and the C8 system is MSRC 4.0. It has become more capable with every generation as a result of ever more sophisticated algorithms and substantially more sensor data now feeding them.
Every GM press release and auto media discussion of the subject since 2003 (when it was introduced on the C5) explains how MSRC can make "thousands of adjustments a second." Yet we still have folks claiming the system "locks the dampers into one setting," and "cannot make on the fly adjustments."
Check out the GM video blast from the past almost 2 decades ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48m1_otpD9c
That was MSRC 1.0, and the C8 system is MSRC 4.0. It has become more capable with every generation as a result of ever more sophisticated algorithms and substantially more sensor data now feeding them.
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Safety Car
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From: Bay Area CA
As far as MSRC, Foosh posted an informative link in post #41.
Last edited by Mike's LS3; Dec 8, 2021 at 07:38 PM.
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It was me that brought up that I suspect that MSRC is for PTM which again I do not have. I suspect MSRC has been added as an option for all C8’s simply because people want to buy it anyway.
Race Director
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From: Garden Valley CA
MSRC (& Z51) is required for PTM but that's not why the Z51 has MSRC. MSRC is on the Z51 because if enhances the capability of the car even ignoring PTM. PTM is almost a side effect of having MSRC and eLSD.
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Race Director
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From: Garden Valley CA
GM may say it in increases the capabilities of the car, just like Apple swears that an IPhone 13 is dramatically faster than a 12. I’m sure at some engineer’s level it is, but I find it in-perceivable. Track is damn near useless. If it’s just a really aggressive MSRC algorithm then they could have saved themselves some effort and just locked it out as that’s what it feels like. Tour and Sport are identical. If MSRC did what they claim it does there’s no need for multiple modes anyway.
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Take a look of all the cars magnetic ride is available or standard on:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagneRide
It isn't just GM. Ford, Audi, Landrover, Ferrari, Acura, and Lamborghini also offer it. There are a lot of companies and buyers that find it more than "in-perceivable".
Last edited by RKCRLR; Dec 8, 2021 at 09:08 PM.
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I don't think that answers the question though. If the car is hugging the road for maximum performance, I don't think that it is physically possible to make the ride comfortable. If there is enough flex to handle a series of small bumps easily then there will be some body roll that you will feel in cornering. I don't see how the sampling rate eliminates this. Otherwise the Z06 with standard magnetic suspension wouldn't be significantly stiffer than the Stingray.
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Tour and Sport are not identical on my Z51. The difference is apparent on a twisty road. Again, the different modes are a starting point. On the track you want every bit of feedback that you wouldn't want during touring.
Take a look of all the cars magnetic ride is available or standard on:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagneRide
It isn't just GM. Ford, Audi, Landrover, Ferrari, Acura, and Lamborghini also offer it. There are a lot of companies and buyers that find it more than "in-perceivable".
Take a look of all the cars magnetic ride is available or standard on:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagneRide
It isn't just GM. Ford, Audi, Landrover, Ferrari, Acura, and Lamborghini also offer it. There are a lot of companies and buyers that find it more than "in-perceivable".
I’m not saying mag ride doesn’t work, just that the tuning for my car is too similar for the modes that I always drive in to be a good value. I basically paid for 1 extra mode that I’ll never want to use.
I currently have a Tahoe with a standard suspension that sucks. I’m not sure what it’s tuned for but it’’s too soft and it just rolls around on curves like a boat. If I were to option another one, it would have mag ride, but I’d leave it one mode all day.
I also have a Palisade that does not have a mag ride option, but it’s a better suspension all the way around and doesn’t need it anyway So I know it’s possible to just make a good all around suspension without any magic real time dampening.