I also chased this down the rabbit hole and found the Tremec site listing for the the C8 TR-9080

TR-9080 DCT 8-speed dual clutch transmission (tremec.com)

Fluid FUCHS Titan EG FFL-4 Double Clutch Transmission Fluid.

So I questioned Fuchs about the "EG" and they replied the EG is German abbreviation for Factory Fill. erstes Getriebeö: literally first gear oil.

 

So the discussion started with the above question about FUCHS Titan FFL-4 and whether it actually met the GM spec for the C8. It was then brought up that the fluid recommended in the earlier Service Manuals is actually listed as FUCHS Titan EG FFL-4 and whether or not that is the same. Post 17 included a response from FUCHS that says that those two are "the same specification" and so FUCHS Titan FFL-4 can be used wherever FUCHS Titan EG FFL-4 is recommended.

But then the question came up - "is Titan FFL-4 the same as ACDelco FFL-4 Automatic Transmission Fluid?", and in post 19, Fuchs would not answer that question - with wording that allowed for the possibility that they are different.

In the Service Manuals for all 4 years, in the table that should list the recommended or required fluid, they all say "see your dealer". And in the earlier service manuals it says use Fuchs Titan EG FFL-4. I realize the dealers are using the ACDelco FFL-4 automatic transmission fluid, but I wonder how dealers were notified to use ACDelco FFL-4 Automatic Transmission Fluid. I tried searching the tech-link articles for a reference to that and did not. Does anyone have access to a later version of the Service Manual that lists the ACDelco FFL-4 Automatic Transmission Fluid?

 

I was told the formula is different, PS www.americansupercarstore.com.au has it cheaper than Dealers

see below TITAN EG FFL-4 is not available from FUCHS Lubricants Australasia (FLA). only OEM

 

also genuine filters are cheaper at www.americansupercarstore.com.au as well

 

so i just received 20l of ac delco dct fluid with a sticker over the fuchs part number 601429385

 

What a long discussion!

Any FFL-4 would work, and they meet or exceed same specs.

 

Is there an expiration date on the container? The one liter containers of the ACDelco FFL-4 have a production date on them and an expiration date of 3 years later.

 

Interestingly enough I've never seen one document from GM that says to use the ACDelco FLF-4 fluid. The owner's manual says see your dealer and the copies of the service manuals I've seen refer to Pentosin or Titan FFL-4. The closest I've seen is in one location of the service manual is a part number for Pentosin FFL-4 and when you Google that PN the ACDelco fluid comes up.

 

THE EG ON FUCHS TITAN TRANSMISSIONS FLUID Means EG in German language mean (original fill) The C8 Corvette originally DCT FLUID is the Fuchs Titan FFL-4 DCT FLUID is the same as AC Delco!!!!!!! They put their name on the bottle so they could charge you twice as much if you look close it doesn’t come in a quart. It says 1.1 quarts or liters because it’s from Germany. If it was a real fluid from the United States Delco, it would be 1 quart fuse. Titan is the oil that is originally filled in the C8 Corvette!!

 

“Special” oil is a topic that car enthusiasts will debate endlessly. As a former GM Engineer, vehicle consumer superstitions also provided an endless supply of jokes and humor.

There is NOTHING special about ANY mechanical aspect of a C8 Corvette including the Z06 and ZR1…..that require a special fluid. Thus the lubricants and fluids used were spec’d from existing supplier products. Like most DCT’s, Tremec uses the FFL-4 fluid type…..period. It’s proven and widely available. Anything else is marketing BS. Chevy and McLaren both rebottle Pentosin FFL-4 for their vehicles, and Chevy dealers charge more per quart than McLaren.

I use $7/qt Valvoline DCT FFL-4 in my McLaren 650S, and previous C8 3LT-Z51 with zero issues. I bought cases of it from Rock Auto and will use it in my new ERay as well with zero problems. Valvoline directly recommends it for any C8 application as well as most auto parts store lookup guides. Valvoline is also a tier-1 Chevrolet Racing sponsor.

Chevrolet recommends DCT fluid/filter change after 24 hours of track use. ALL of my friends and the C8 track cars around here (central WI/Road America) have used Valvoline DCT for years. These C8’s are regularly beaten like rented mules with no unusual problems.

 

Meeting or exceeding the manufacture's specifications are the key words in the above statement. As far as I know, the Valvoline DCT fluid doesn't claim it meets the FFL-4 specification (whatever that is), it says it is recommended for use where FFL-4 fluid is required.

I once used combination GL4/GL5 gear oil in a transaxle that required GL4 oil. The manufacturer said it was suitable for both GL4 and GL5 applications. My gears immediately started grinding during shifts. I switched back to a straight GL4 gear oil and my problems went away.

Personally I hope people continue to have success with the Valvoline DCT fluid. I think it is quite likely going to be a good alternative and I'll possibly use it in the future after any concerns about warranty are over. But I'm waiting to see the long term results to make sure there aren't any nuances with the Tremec DCT.

 

Can you points us to the actual specification for FFL-4 fluid type and the agency that certifies that it meets that specification. For example with SAE ratings there is written spec, and an agency that administers the spec, and there are procedures for verifying that an engine oil meets the spec.

I have never been able to find a specification, or any administrating authority would evaluate different fluids against the FFL-4 specification, if one exists. As far as I can tell its just part of the name of a fluid, sort of like with Mobil 1 ESP X3, the terms ESP and X3 are just names of the product. Pentosin FFL-4 became, according to Fuchs, Fuchs Titan FFL-4 with the same formulation. And we know Fuchs makes the Delco product, but Fuch will not confirm its an identical formulation, although it likely is. The TREMEC literature does indicate Fuchs Titan FFL-4. The Delco DCTF FFL-4 is recommended in a tech link article.

The Fuchs Titan FFL-4 product is listed by Fuch as having approvals by Getrag - but it never lists anything that say "meets FFL-4 specification". In fact, Fuchs lists approvals and recommendations but does not indicate any specifications that it meets. And, the product has been used in other cars, prior to the C8. While the EG term does mean factory fill, that was in place before its use in the C8, and I think it applied to other vehicles. It may very well be used in the C8, but I don't think that can be concluded solely from the EG term.

But when we see Valvoline, or Amsoil or other makes indicate that the fluid is recommended where FFL-4 is indicated, where is the specification for that product, and what agency evaluates the fluid against that spec to verify its compliance. I'm not saying those products are bad, only that the recommendation for use in the C8 is coming from the maker's own test of their product against some criteria - perhaps obtained by analysis of the Fuchs product, or .....?

 

From what I can find on the net it seems that BMW is discontinuing the DCT transmission. Anyone else verify this as a fact?

 

Indeed, most manufacturers are going back to regular autos since their efficiency issues have vastly improved in recent years, and they naturally provide a smoother operation, while being pretty good on performance. That said, DCT is still has a place for certain applications, especially for sports cars with various packaging constraints, etc.

 

Unlike transmission and gear case oils, engine lubricant's for consumer transportation vehicles affect emissions equipment, and thus are in the purview of various DOT/EPA regulations, which in turn affect SAE/API/ILSAC "standards" for these lubricants. Nearly all engine/gear oils these days are very high quality. Engine oil minimum standards were more important in the past prior to the advent of modern synthetic oils and advanced petroleum molecular engineering and hydrocracked refining processes. See below for both Valvoline and Pentosin specs.....they are nearly identical.

Add in significant lubricant OEM marketing BS and specious performance claims, along with vehicle OEM lubricants and their in-house (mostly marketing) "certifications", coupled with "on the internet everyone is an expert" and the usage and performance results of vehicle oils ends up being mostly opinionated nonsense. I've done enough UOA's with Blackstone Labs over the years to see this for myself.

I will say again that there is nothing mechanically "special" about any aspect of any Corvette that requires a "special" lubricant. The same applies to any consumer transportation vehicle.

Any common vehicle lubricant will have a half-dozen reputable petroleum companies with a suitable high-quality product. Pick which one is suitable for use based on availability and cost and then do the #1 thing that affects a lubricants performance.....keep it fresh by changing regularly. I do not drive enough miles on any of my performance cars and motorcycles to meet mileage intervals, so I service them yearly. I or anyone else with basic tools can do a C8 DCT fluid/filter change in less than 3 hours @ a cost of $175 for the Chevrolet filter and 10 quarts of Valvoline DCT fluid. Given the various DCT issues reported (or over reported) my ERay will get the DCT fluid/filter changed yearly and I'll never give another thought to having it done.

I do not have to be a Petroleum Engineer to wager a $100 bill that ANY sample of $7/qt synthetic Valvoline DCT oil taken from my Eray's DCT (never in the car for more than a year) and sent to Blackstone Labs will have superior lubrication properties vs ANY sample of the OEM Chevrolet $30-40/qt DCT oil taken from another Corvette being run for potentially several years and 10k-20k miles. Say there are two C8 Corvettes for sale. Both cars are 6-years old, no warranty, and both have 18K miles and similar color/options/condition/price. One car has had the DCT fluid/filter changed twice, the other car had DCT fluid/filter changed six times. Which one would you buy?

One more factor to consider is that the GM DCT oil is imported from Germany. The smoking crack price that people already pay for it is only going to go up once the tariffs get into full swing. I would not be a bit surprised given the trade situation if GM/Tremec look for an alternate supplier of suitable DCT oil. Valvoline is made in the good ol USA.

 

TITAN FFL-4 (Formerly PENTOSIN FFL-4) Premium Performance DCTF. Specially developed for GETRAG/BMW Double Clutch Transmission with wet clutch

is also made by FUCHS that makes ACDELCO one GM use

 

Sure. I never said anything about special lubricant" or special mechanical features. Like you said " the lubricants and fluids used were spec’d from existing supplier products," and not an FFL-4 specification. I never said there is anything wrong with the Valvoline product. My issue is with the suggestion that any "FFL-4 fluid type" fluid type will be satisfactory, because FFL-4 is not really a specification. As you stated, Tremec recommends a specific brand of fluid. Depending on where you look, you can find Fuchs Titan FFL-4 and Pentosin FFL-4 listed by Tremec for that transmission. Depending on where you look in GM literature, you can find the same things - Pentosin FFL-4, Fuchs Titan FFL-4 (in the service manual), and you can find Declo DCTF FFL-4 listed in a GM tech link article. They are listing specific products. What you will not find is a statement saying "use a dual clutch transmission fluid that meets the requirement of FFL-4", because FFL-4 is not a specification. The owners manual does not even list or recommend a fluid, and never says "use an FFL-4 fluid type". It says see your dealer.

So, when one selects a fluid to put into their C8 transmission, how does one decide that a different brand from those listed is acceptable, equivalent, or even better? Its not because the name of the product has FFL-4 in it. Its because you have confidence in the reputation of the manufacturer, and its based on the manufacturer saying that their product is suitable for that a application. The Valvoline product is great example. It does not even have the term FFL-4 in its name. The way you know its ok to use is because the manufacturer says that FFL-4 is a "recommended application" in the product data sheet. You can also go on the Valvoline web site, and their product finder will recommend using their Dual Clutch Transmission Fluid in the C8. But it never says it meets or exceed an FFL-4 specification, because there isn't one.

The Amsoil Dual Clutch Transmission Fluid is similar- it does not have FFL-4 in its name - their product data sheet under "applications" lists "Pentosin* FFL-2, FFL-3, FFL-4", the specific product, but never says meets or exceed the requirements of FFL-4 specification, because there isn't one. And, if you use their product finder, it will recommend using it in the C8. Do you trust that recommendation? Some do, some don't. If you use it, you are basing that choice on the manufacturer's recommendation.

How about the Amalie "Universal Dual Clutch Transmission Fluid"? They don't have FFL-4 in the name. Their product finder recommends that for the C8. Under recommended applications, it says GM DCTF FFL-4. Anyone using it? Not saying its bad - only that if you use it, its based on the manufacturer's recommended applications.
https://www.amalie.com/wp-content/up...Sell_Sheet.pdf

Also, Product Data Sheets are not specifications- they include a list of test results for selected parameters. The specification for a lubricant is much more than a list of several parameters found in a PDS. PDS's also include, generally, recommended applications where they may list OEM specs, approvals (such as from Porsche, Mercedes, Ford, whatever), and specifications actually met. The Valvoline PDS has a long list of applications, but no approvals and no specifications. Amsoil is the same way. Even the Fuchs Titan FFL-4 PDS lists no specification met. It lists one approval from Getrag. And a long list of applications. But in the case of that product, its recommended by name in Tremec and GM documents (and it also recommended by name in the Maserati MC20 Owner's Manual - that uses the same TREMEC transmission) . The Delco DCTF FFL-4 product also does not list any specifications met.

Bottom line, if you choose to use Dual Clutch Transmission Fluid in your C8, other than those recommended by product name in Tremec, or GM documents, it is based on the recommendation of the manufacturer of the lubricant, and your trust in that manufacturer.

 

Machine lubrication is far from an exact science, and specifications certainly exist for a virgin lubricant sitting in its packaging. That lubricant in one machine might perform spectacularly, and in another machine it gets ground into the viscosity of water. This cannot be defined by specifications, opinions of those specifications, or product marketing.....it is defined by real world testing and actual use. Hence the value of internet forums.....places where people can get together and share their experiences from the actual real world in order to avoid "snake oil" lessons learned the hard way. I've been on this forum from it's first year on the internet....25 years ago, and I've noticed an obvious trend since social media went online in the mid 2000's......people that present opinions as facts, and their inability to differentiate between them.

I certainly appreciate back and forth banter as much as anyone, but, someone who posts data about something they ACTUALLY DID is significantly more valuable info vs someone who has no actual experience and instead posts their opinion. Quantitative(Fact) vs Qualitative(Opinion) data analysis is taught early on in any undergrad engineering program. Both types of data are valuable, and knowing where each fits in a solution stack is the key.

As I get older, I am less inclined to blaze a path where none have tread prior. I've watched the track guys @ Road America run the dog **** out of all types of vehicles for years.....and a lot of C8 Corvettes. Chevy dealers around here charge $1200 to do a DCT fluid/filter service + the typical scheduling BS and usual PIA of dealing with a General Motors dealer. These guys would go broke if they had to do that every 24-hours of track time.....like once a month. Valvoline DCT fluid has been used in the C8 from the beginning and it performs as good/better as factory fill. This is not my opinion, it is a fact that I have direct experience with in my own C8 Corvette's + direct knowledge of it's reliable use for years in C8 Corvettes with roll bars that are regularly driven on the edge......far beyond what I ever will.

I have a fleet of vehicles = a lot of yearly maintenance. I like to standardize on "fleet" service products used across several vehicles. My McLaren McMedic also highly recommends Valvolilne DCT for my 650S and any McLaren vehicle. No need to buy multiple "certified" products.

Quaker State 5W-40 is Penzoil GTL synthetic oil in a green QS bottle. Penzoil owns the Quaker State brand and I use it it my Ferrari 512TR, Lotus Esprit, C7 ZR1, and both C8 Corvette's.......oh no....it doesn't have the Dexos logo.......lol. It is a very good engine oil. How do I know? My opinion? It's a fact that the C8 track guys all run it in their cars. I've seen UOA's from Blackstone on Mobil-1 Supercar 0W-40 and Quaker State 5W-40...both from the same C8 LT2 with 10 high-rpm track hours on each. Both are very good oils for C8 Corvette, both measured well with the QS having a bit better VI and additives. I've seen numerous LT2 tear downs and mod rebuilds on cars with a lot of track miles having been run only on Quaker State 5W-40.....bearings, cams, crank journals were all tip top. I went in with some local racers and bought my own 55-Gallon drum of Quaker State 5W-40 Euro Synthetic for $750 = $3.50/quart + I have a pressurized digital dispensing system just like the lube shops.

I also do not use the chincy Delco PF64 factory oil filter. Another benefit of all the track cars around here.....they all use Oreilly Auto Parts MSL57502 MicroGard Select oil filters. Opinion? Hardly. I've personally cut them apart and looked at UOA's from several C8 race cars that run them.....they are larger than a PF64, full synthetic media, have the proper 22psi bypass, high-flow, high-filtration, and I buy them in bulk for use on 4 different GM and Ford vehicles that I own. The more you know!!

 

@gsvette , regarding your engine oil comment, I think you should really consider running the dexos supercar certified oils since you might otherwise clog the catalytic converters, especially after heavy track use. This happened to many folks on the forum as well as my local friends. I've always used their recommended oils but my cats rather cracked on the C7 Z06, and they were hopefully clean when they cracked : P

 

QS 5W-40 is not a diesel oil formulation. It's a Euro Spec performance synthetic oil, so no problems with cats. All the Corvette roll bar guys around here have run it for years with no issues.