This is impossible, as a Random Orbital Polisher cannot and will not mimic the direct spinning motion of a rotary. Increasing the pressure will slow the pad down, making the machine act more like a traditional orbital polisher (such as a 'Wax Master').

Perhaps their limited understanding of the intricacies of dual-action polishing (as it regards to paint polishing and not wood working) has caused them confusion as well? As far as posting the diagram, I will post it shortly
.

Yes if you press hard enough on a Porter Cable you can force the momentum of the machine cause the pad to spin backwards to the orbit (Like a Flex does). This does't always require a lot of pressure, if a small amount of pressure is focused on a small area, the same thing can result. What the diagram showed is why this happens. Unless you rebuild the machine from the ground up it will never mimic a rotary, nor would you want it to.

While you know I respect you and your opinion, I strongly disagree with not only your outlook, but how you achieved that outlook.

You continue to say that you have to abuse the Porter Cable to get results, but you have also mentioned that to me that you only tried the method a couple of times and didn't find it beneficial, but you also have stated that you haven't spoken to Kevin. I would think that part of the reason that you have gotten such poor results is because you are using the machine in a method that abuses it.

So if you are not getting results and abusing the equipment, and people who are getting results and are not abusing the equipment, perhaps the problem is a lack of understanding.

As far as forcing a tool to do something it wasn't designed to do... Random Orbital Polishers are designed to remove material from a surface utilizing a combination of orbital motion and spinning action. This is EXACTLY what you are doing when you polish paint. Removing material with a dual action pattern...

The argument you have made that Porter Cable's are wood working tools and shouldn't be used on paint is also refuted by the fact that the rotary polisher you use is an angle grinder by design. However products, pads, and accessories have been developed to allow the machines to with and be marketed as paint polishing machines. The new Porter Cable XP is marketed as a paint polishing tool anyways, but will still perform just as effectively on wood.

Regarding the specific amount of pressure to use on a machine, this is dictated more by the polishing pad being used (and the goals of polishing) then any other factor. Foam pads absorb some of the directional changes that an orbital machine produces. By compressing the foam to the ideal amount (depending on pad size, foam type, pad thickness) we are able to better transfer the movement of the machine to the movement of the pad. It is far more complicated then 'just press hard'. Of course polishing is as simple or as complex as we make it, although those repeating the 'press hard' mantra are truly showing a lack of understanding about a complex subject.

To get the best results with a d/a (and even a rotary) you have to be able to transfer the motion of the machine to the paint in an efficient manner. This is true regardless of the type of the machine.

The correct tool for the job is the one that provides the results you are looking to achieve. Any issues about machine abuse is from a lack of understanding IMO.

 

Hey, I've got a question about the KBM........


I'm going to try and keep it in simple guy terms......


On a one to ten, and using two different products with the same pad, how much down force is the KBM vs. old school normal PC application pressure........?

How much pressure for Menzerna products......?

How much pressure for M105/205 in the KBM......?


An explanation on those two might help clear the fog with some folks like me......

Thanks in advance guys........

(I'm only asking about the PC in this question. Later I'll ask about the Flex and rotary pad pressure)

 

The main thing people have raved about regarding the KBM is its ability to correct imperfections. In that aspect, pressure is used, and lots of it according to people who are educated about the method. Generally, you will see people recommending to use 10 lbs of down force during normal use. 10lbs of down force is pretty much nothing. How much pressure is used to correct imperfections via the KBM? IN GENERAL, give me a range. Dont write a book.

 

The methods that apply for the 'KBM' method as you will, applies for most polishes.

The most common quoted pressure for use on a DA-RO is about 15 lbs of pressure. This is a good solid base line, but overlooks a couple of variables.

What size pad are you using, what machine speed, how thick is the pad, what is it made of, what are your goals?

There are so many variables when it comes to machine polishing (with any style of machine) that to get the best results requires a good deal of experience. There are a lot of real good guys out there who can achieve amazing results because they are constantly changing their technique on the fly to adjust for these variables. To get the best results from either machine requires that experience.

In most cases using 15 (perhaps an additional 5 pounds) of pressure is a good base line. Keep in mind (regardless of the products used) that the factors are pretty much the same.

Because the foam of the pad moves around or absorbs some of the movement of the machine, we want to use enough pressure to compress the foam and reduce the amount of wasted action. So a firmer, stiffer foam will require less pressure, where as a softer, grippier foam will require more pressure.

The diameter of the pad also has an effect on this. A larger foam will 'absorb' more down force from the machine, so more down force is needed to equally compress the increased diameter.

The type of polishing liquid will also change the amount of pressure needed. A wetter, more slippery liquid would require less pressure and a drier, stickier liquid more pressure.

A thicker pad will increase the need for pressure as well.

I know this is an open ended answer that is more of explanation, but getting the best possible results always requires experience in trying to achieve the best possible results.

To keep it simple, apply enough pressure to hold the pad in shape as it moves across the paint, and to press it even to the paint's surface. This tends to be around 20 lbs for your most typical pad (there is no such thing). The pad should still rotate at a nice, controlled rate. Polish two sections side by side and inspect them (slightly change your pressure).

 

[QUOTE=allstar14;1570971654]The main thing people have raved about regarding the KBM is its ability to correct imperfections. In that aspect, pressure is used, and lots of it according to people who are educated about the method. Generally, you will see people recommending to use 10 lbs of down force during normal use. 10lbs of down force is pretty much nothing. How much pressure is used to correct imperfections via the KBM? IN GENERAL, give me a range. Dont write a book.[/QUOTE]

There is no simple explanation and trying to simplify it only limits the potential. You don't want me to write a book, then you really aren't interested in learning as much knowledge as possible. I do apologize if you find my posts long winded, but I am trying to be thorough in my explanations so that the rampant misinformation that is constantly posted can be corrected. It seems your statement was based on this misinformation.

I see more people recommending 15lbs then anything else, and I would say that is pretty close to ideal given the factors I have stated plus other factors such as the depth of the defects and the paint's scratch resistance. Perhaps 20 lbs? Maybe more, maybe less... But I have gone on and on why I think your opinion is wrong, and you have done nothing to defend your factual statement that the KBM is bad for the paint.

And please feel free to be specific, use facts, and write a book, as it helps me understand your views.

 

These are the diagrams in question and the diagrams that Asphalt Rocket orginally responded to as 'proving his point' that excessive pressure is needed to turn the PC into a rotary. These are posted with Kevin Brown's permission.

They simply show that it is possible to make the PC rotate in the opposite direction that it spins, nothing more and nothing less.

 

Todd, I have used the method several times, like I said and will say it will not do as good a job as the rotary. I will once again tell you that you are over working the pc, i.e. force it to do something it was not intended to do. Plus those are the not the diagrams that were on your site, they were different, something KB posted. I believe it was in Luster's thread. I have not contacted Kevin about his method, there are plenty of articles on the forums to get a very good understanding of it and to make my personal evaluation of it.

As far as the wood working guys go, it was about how you are using the machine, trust me they have more knowledge then both of us put together on sanding. You thought we were **** about polishing a car these guys make us look like we are just wash and waxers.

Also your comparision with the angle grinder, not a very good one. The grinder can take that much more abuse, it is alot sturdier piece. The pc was built to be a finishing sander for the beginning-7336, then they added 7424 as a polisher. When you polish something you are correcting very minor defects if any at all, atleast that is my definition of polishing. Plus if you have noticed proter cable makes a rotary also to take up were the pc leaves off.

I appreciate your time on the diagrams and your lengthy write-ups, but to me they are more theory than anything else. You can give people 20 pages of this or that and pretty pictures but in the end it is all about what certain things are made to do and not being pushed past their own limits.

I will agree with you that the pc with the right pad/polish/compound combo will remove some defects, but it will not replace the finish the rotary provides.

You and I can back and forth on this like we always have. The point is you feel it works and I feel it abuses a tool and is o.k. at best in its performance when the pc is not abused.

Edit: Just for grins I sent this to three people that finish wood with the pc and pretty much laughed at how and what you are doing to the polisher. Do not say they are using it in a different fashion since we are using it on paint, the tool is the samething whether sanding wood or polishing paint.The tool was meant to be applied flat to the surface without any type of pressure. I will agree I finally got the pc to go backwards with any excessive amount of pressure. Since I have used the tool correctly I have never had it go backwards. So just with the diagrams you provided you are abusing the tool. The amount of pressure you are using you can step up to a rotary and not even come cxlose to using that type of pressure, get the vehicle polished in a quicker time and end up with a better finish.
I just want to thank you for having me go abuse the pc so I see how much pressure you are really using to achieve this reverse motion.

 

I have a 4 year old PC, that up to the first of this year saw 2 yrs of use.

Since Dec of last year I have polished at least 20 cars using the KBM, believe it or not this 4 yr old PC still functions fine.

In 3 years of rotary use, I have had repairs done on 3 different rotaries (hitachi, metabo and small flex rotary.)

IMO the PC is the most durable detailing tool ever.

 

Tell me something - Why is the whole tool abuse thing so important? I thought the reason we use power tools was to get results? If I use a power tool outside its design parameters, but get the results I want, so what?


People want tips and techniques to get the best results from their hard work and money. Senselessly abusing a tool is one thing; using a tool to get a desired result is another. I mean, think of all the things people do with screwdrivers.

And your opinion is countered by people who have extensive experience otherwise. I haven't touched my rotaries much in the past year or so since I've been using the KBM and other PC-centric polishing techniques.

Todd and others do not "feel" it works, they KNOW it works. They have dozens of successful details to prove it. Your comment negated the hard work they've accomplished and happy customers they've earned.

The diagrams show how to get the best results from a power tool. The abuse you claim is only your opinion. I know you have talked to Bryan about this, and I know he has never had a PC failure. How is it abuse if the tool doesn't fail?

 

I have been using my old PC with the KBM method since May of 2008, and it still runs like a top.

Pressure is only 1 variable in the equation, and not even the largest. The largest variable, in my opinion, is properly priming the pad with non diminishing abraisives, and not letting the pad get over loaded. Heck, depending on the paint and the level of defects, I can sometimes use the KBM, and no more pressure than one would use when polishing with a PC and a traditional diminishing abraisive. But, what do I know - I'm just a hack!!!

 

Glad to hear that your pc is holding up, they make great tools. I have almost every tool they make in my wood shop. I have a 7336 that is 22 or 23 years old and still works just as it the day I bought it. Then again after all that time it was never forced to do what it wasn't meant to do.

As far as your rotaries go I would expect that out of those brands. I have two Black and Deckers(DeWalt 849 model) that are 24 years old that have never broken down. Not only have they compounded/polished hundreds of wet sanded custom paint jobs they also are used daily on detail jobs.

You are missing the point of my posts though. It is not about the quality of the Porter Cable tools because they are great tools and very well made. It is the point of which you are forcing them to be something they are not intended to be. You are using enough pressure to force the pad to go in reverse or cut severe defects that you need to step up to a tool that does not need to be forced as in a rotary.

 

Glad you chimed in here too...... You seem to have the most experience with this method.....

Todd gave an answer earlier (around 5 pounds more pressure) and I'll ask you the same question.......

Given the machine, speed and pads all being the same........

How much more pressure do you put on a PC using M105/205 vs. Menzerna or other products in general.......( a one to ten scale will do)

I've seen the results you've posted and the photographs are very impressive.

 

I'm still struggling with why this is so important? The point you are making of forcing a tool to do something it wasn't designed to do is hard to grasp within this context.

We are not having tool failures.

We are getting incredibly good results, better results than with the rotary, despite what you think.

We have happy customers paying us tons of money to detail their cars.

Where is the problem? You are arguing from a theoretical standpoint. From our real world view, this is a non issue, yet you seem to think that alleged tool abuse is more important than top quality results and happy customers. Why?

Seems to me you are arguing from a point of view that is becoming obsolete. Believe me, if I found a new tool and technique that could deliver better results than a PC, I'd sell my two machines and never look back.

I want results. My customers are paying me to deliver those results. The tools and techniques I'm using provide the results I'm looking for. What else is there?

 

So as you stand behind me and watch me polish every car via the KBM you have seen this?

When using the KBM properly on a flat surface there is no need to apply enough pressure to make the pad spin backwards to remove severe defects.

As we have had a few PMs on this subject, I will again ask you to show proof of anyone that has killed a PC using this method.

 

Dave,

I'll take a crack at this one. The answer is, I don't know. This is where detailing is more art than science. I know you want a formula or some kind data point for comparison, but there really isn't one. It all depends on the car, the paint, the weather conditions, the expected results, etc.

These new methods were developed out of experimentation. You've got to try new things with new products and techniques until you hit on something. Try them yourself and see how they work for you.

Hope this helps.

- - Bret - -

 

Its really hard for me to put that into a # for you.

As Todd stated there is no magic formula. As long as you keep the pad spinning CW you are fine. I would est that it took me at least 3 cars to figure out what I was doing and why it was happening. I did all this w/out the help of any workworking experts.

 

I am not taking anything away from Bryan or Todd's abilities. As far as knowledge goes I probably have more than them and would never question anything without trying it out myself.

So abusing a tool to get results is the correct way of doing things, knock yourself out. I have seen plenty of techs that have broken screw drivers as pry bars and some that have hurt themselves. I guess them using the wrong tool was the smart thing to do. The reason it is important is that you should give people proper/accurate information and that includes what tools and products really do

I with you on getting desired results, so why can't you with the correct tool instead of pushing a tool to do something it never was intended to do. The tool abuse is more than opinion it was not designed to be forced, so that would make it more of a fact than an opinion. As far as an opinion goes we all are allowed to have them. If you want these desired results want not just pick up a rotary and get them, that is what it is meant to do.

Whats funny about what you say Todd knowing it works he also knows and we have spoken on the phone about this, and that it doesn't work on everything.

Just because you abuse a tool does not mean it is going to break right away. It is like anything else out there, it will break before it should. Like I said in my earlier post in response to Bryan, I have a 7336 that is 22 or 23 years old and works like the day I bought it.

 

Just go to db and you will see two, is that enough proof for you.

 

I use a rotary with great results and have a huge customer base that pays me very well also. I already agreed with you I am all about the results also and making customers happy. That is why we do this. I am sorry you can not see the point, I am not in to pushing something to do something that it was not designed to do. If you feel I am wrong that is your opinion and I can respect that but like I have continue to say if you have to make something do what it wasn't designed to do what is the purpose.

 

Dana, You really need to keep your ego out of this or its just a waste of everybodys time.