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How to fix holograms and swirls part 2

 
Old 10-24-2012, 06:57 AM
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Default How to fix holograms and swirls part 2

I'm sure you all remember my car from a few weeks ago...



If you don't remember the thread, and this is your first time seeing this; Please, let's just not get into what happened. I'm past that, and now I am focussing on how to fix it myself. The paint thickness has been checked by Bryan Burnworth and it is in good enough shape to work on.

I will be getting a 7424xp as the machine, but what I am still unsure of is what would be the best products and pads to use.

The wolfgang Duo has been recommended to me on Autogeek, but they also offer an array of other products. Up in the air is:

1. The taller thicker pads or the thinner ones? I kind of feel like the thicker pads may be easier to use on the curvy body of this corvette.

2. What compound and what polish? The wolfgang stuff seems pretty good, especially since some of it is actually a blend of Menzerna.

3. What paint sealant? I'm leaning towards Klasse because of its effective life before having to be re-applied. I don't want to be waxing / applying paint sealant that often if I don't have to. For that reason, wax is out the window and paint sealant is in.

Any other recommendations would be great.
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:46 AM
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Here is my suggestion, as heavy as it appears,

Wash with dawn soap,the original blue kind
Clay bar
Menzerna Super Intensive Polish, you might need to do a double pass, use an orange cutting pad
Pinnacle Paintwork Cleansing Lotion, I would use a white pad for this
Then, apply wax or sealant of your choice. I use Zaino's Z-5, followed by a coat of Z-Clear Seal.
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by J S Machine View Post
I'm sure you all remember my car from a few weeks ago...



If you don't remember the thread, and this is your first time seeing this; Please, let's just not get into what happened. I'm past that, and now I am focussing on how to fix it myself. The paint thickness has been checked by Bryan Burnworth and it is in good enough shape to work on.

I will be getting a 7424xp as the machine, but what I am still unsure of is what would be the best products and pads to use.

The wolfgang Duo has been recommended to me on Autogeek, but they also offer an array of other products. Up in the air is:

1. The taller thicker pads or the thinner ones? I kind of feel like the thicker pads may be easier to use on the curvy body of this corvette.

2. What compound and what polish? The wolfgang stuff seems pretty good, especially since some of it is actually a blend of Menzerna.

3. What paint sealant? I'm leaning towards Klasse because of its effective life before having to be re-applied. I don't want to be waxing / applying paint sealant that often if I don't have to. For that reason, wax is out the window and paint sealant is in.

Any other recommendations would be great.
1. Get the Hydro-tech pads from Lake Country I often use the thin ones but either work well.

2. Wolfgang TSR and FG, or Menzerna SIP and 085rd, or Megs 105 and 205. These two-step combo's work well.

3. Rejex and Blackfire should be considered also.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:58 PM
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I talked to u on phone and showed u pics of that black vette i did.i use wolfgang total swirl and wolfgang finishing glaze then blackfire sealant.i use ccs pads
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Old 10-27-2012, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by c4gone View Post
I talked to u on phone and showed u pics of that black vette i did.i use wolfgang total swirl and wolfgang finishing glaze then blackfire sealant.i use ccs pads
I'm afraid you're going to need something more powerful then a polish to make that finish look the way it should. Yes, it will give it a darker appearance, but these are mid range polishes that have moderate cutting abilities. Step up to a dedicated compound and you'll level the finish much better.

Sorry things didn't work out with Bryan? You should of asked him what he would have recommended or have him do a dest spot to seewhat would work.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:06 PM
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Sorry for the lack of update to theis thread. I have been busy and have not had much of a chance to sit down and do it.

I decided on several products from Autogeek. I ended up getting the PCXP as I had intended, along with the Wolfgang duo. That duo consists of Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover 3.0 and Finishing Glaze 3.0. I also got a six pack of Lake country 5.5" flat pads consisting of two orange cutting pads, two white polishing pads, and two blue applicator type pads. I got the Blackfire pad care kit, which consists of pad conditioner and cleaner along with a cleaning brush. I also got four 3" hydro-tech pads - two cyan cutting and two tangerine polishing pads. The appropriately sized backplates were ordered too. Klasse paint sealant was chosen for reasons stated in the start of this thread. I also bought Mike Phillips The Art of Detailing E book and read that.

When I first started, I took this picture of the test spot.



If you look close, you can see the straight line scratches very slightly running vertically. These were the ones that were obviously instilled by contamination in the sandpaper during the wetsanding process.

I decided to do my test spot on the roof. I went to work with a orange low profile pad, and Wolfgang TSR using the PCXP. I primed my pad with pad conditioner, and made about five section passes in an area I had taped off that equaled about half of the roof. After I finished, the swirls were just about gone and those stuck out like a sore thumb (now that they were not being camoflaged by the swirls.) They were obviously deeper than what the TSR was willing to deal with. I took some 2000 grit paper and lightly sanded a few of them and the came right out. The ones I checked beforehand did not catch my fingernail.

After another six section passes with TSR and an orange pad, the sanding marks I made with 2000 grit paper were not coming out. After consulting with a few people on AG, they concluded that I may actually need Meguiars M105. After an exhausting search at every single automotive parts place and paint supply near me, nobody had it. AG then recommended Meguiars Ultimate compound, since I could get it at walmart or basically anywhere. I got a bottle of this and started using it.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:13 PM
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The Ultimate compound worked out alot better than the TSR, but it still was proving to be a little tame for the small scratches.

Here are some shots of the work. I used a quarter to help the camera focus.

This is the size of area for the test spot that I initially started with:



After some careful consideration, and given the number of defects I'm dealing with, I decided to split that in two and create a more managable size. See here:



I think I learned a lesson on this. That is: the reason Mike calls for a test area / working area to be no bigger than 20x20 is because of the fact that you will simply wear yourself out trying to maintain the uniformity, arm speed, technique, and pressure while working an area larger than that. In addition, the working time of your chemical will probably diminish, especially with more aggressive compounds. I'm just shooting from the hip here, but I think that is a big part of it.

After one step of the Ultimate compound, the scratches that were being stubborn (Let's just call them what they are - RIDS) still remained, but I noticed feathering on some of them. This tells me that with enough passes, these RIDS will come out. Again, my fingernail will not catch on these. Matter of fact, they are so shallow it's difficult to even feel them. I cant sit and say that I actually have felt one all along. That is a good sign

Here are some of the RIDS I managed to get pics of-





Now for the results-

In this picture, to the left is the area closest to me (the smaller area I taped off above that has my whole hand in the pic) that has been worked with Ultimate compound. I made five section passes with it. To the right is the area done with wolfgang TSR. It is the other half of the intial bigger area I had taped off.



Now, at this point I stopped and decided that M105 would probably definitely be quicker. That's when I began another trip to find it locally, but had no luck. What I did find at Advance were 3M 3000 grit Trizact pads. I can work these RIDS with these pads, and then the Ultimate compound will easily get the 3000 grit scratches out. It took care of the 2000 grit paper scratches that I had done with 2000g paper so I was not worried. The 3000 scratches will be much easier, and less abrasive on the paint.

If you look up to one of the pictures above with the RIDS, like say for instance the one with the quarter, I think you will see the remaining cobweb type swirls. The wolfgang TSR took care of these, so no issues there.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:19 PM
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Here is a picture of the entire roof. In this picture, I have completed the testing on the part of the roof closest to me, wet sanded the light RIDS out with the 3000 grit trizact pad, and buffed again with about 5 section passes of Ultimate compound. The test section is no longer marked with tape, because at this point I had removed it and done the rest of the roof with about five section passes of Ultimate compound. I did do them in small sections, but I had chosen to do each compounding step entirely on each panel before moving to the next. I have wiped the entire panel here with IPA so I could see the true results.



After this, I took a good long hard look at each section of the roof, even the one I had already done (which was the test spot). I have basically divided it up into thirds, so there are three different sections. I found a few more small RIDS, so I sanded the small RIDS again with my trizact pad and moved across the whole roof.

Here is sanding after what I could reach from the driver's side.



And here is it finished after I had done the remaining roof area from the other side. I used a very bright light to pick the RIDS out, and simply wet sanded them until they were all gone.



The trizact pads are great. Much better than sandpaper ever was. The extra cusion in the pad makes them great for little touch up stuff like this. The RIDS were almost all very, very shallow. A couple of passes with the pad took care of most very quick. There were only a few that I had to hit several times before they disappeared.

After this sanding step was completed, I again buffed each of the thirds of the roof with about five section passes of Ultimate compund again, to clean up the rest of the paint and get the sanding hazing out. The following steps would be a couple of section passes with TSR and then the finishing glaze.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:22 PM
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I got the system ironed out and got the roof and halo done. It took ten hours to do, but it looks great. I'm sure part of the ridiculous time frame for that little of an area has alot to do with my learning curve though.

Once I got the roof done and I knew I was ok, I did a tape line area on the bottom of the halo just for the purpose of showing you guys in the steps.

So here we go. These are the steps. After each one I wiped with IPA to be sure I was seeing paint and not any sort of fillers.

Here is the tape off



And then, the first five section passes with Ultimate and orange pad done, and I have lightly sanded the scratches.



After this I have to hit it again with Ultimate and orange pad, for about ten section passes. What I usually do is stop at five section passes, still see scratches from sanding, and go another five section passes. At that point, they have cleared up for the most part and it looks like this



Then, I hit it with the TSR and orange pad and it looks like this



After that I switch to a white pad and do the 3.0 finishing glaze for about four section passes. Looks like this afterwards



Then I pull the tape so you can see the line.





So that is pretty drastic if you ask me. After this, I did the rest of the halo, and then sealed the roof and halo with Klasse paint sealant. This is a pic after that. I know it isn't bright sun, but trust me, there are no swirls. I wiped it with IPA and looked at it thoroughly, because I don't want to have to go backwards after so much time going forward . The only defects left are very small little tick marks, and for some reason, just wiping with any pressure with a microfiber cloth seems to induce them.

Of course the car still has the orange peel, it is not flat like you would think from wet sanding. Like I have stated before, he did not cut the paint all the way down flat. from four or five feet away, you can't even see the orange peel. It looks as good as I have expected all along. Here is a finished pic of the roof and halo after paint sealant



I used a blue pad to apply the paint sealant. I'm not sure if the stuff was just applied too thick or what, but it was a nightmare to buff clean with a towel. I waited about ten minutes before buffing it off, and it was thoroughly hazed over at that point.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:27 PM
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I picked up a 6" orange pad from the local Harbor Freight because my Orange pads were really starting to show some wear. It worked out ok, but it was very stiff compared to my Lake Country pads. It also started to deteriorate after about 20 minutes of use, and started crumbling. The pad surface is OK, but it is coming apart near wear the velcro attaches on the backing plate. It is losing little foam particles whick look like specs of compound. You have to look close to see that they are peices of pad, and not compound. I would probably buy one again, but only if it was an emergency and I couldn't get a good pad.

The hatch lid was next. It had an abundance of small scratches. I didn't get pictures of every step, since I have already detailed all of that in previous posts. It took a good three hours to do the hatch lid because of having to go back and redo some of the sanding on some of the scratches. There were some that seemed to be a little deeper than what I had encountered on the roof and halo. It finished out well though and got a coat of paint sealant on it too.

Here is an example of one of the scratches I found on the hatch lid..



Here is a picture of the finished hatch lid. Not the drastic color difference in between the hatch and the small strip of the upper bumper cover and the fender to the left. That is one thing that is just been knocking me down... It is unbelieveable how defects in the paint can cause the light to scatter and create and illusion that the paint is changing colors in a sense. Once it is corrected and the surface is free of defects, the color deepens and really pops



I also did the headlight covers. They have the same questionable paint that the hood does, since they were painted at the same time. Remember, the last guy to detail the car actually wetsanded the whole car, including the hood. Up until this, the hood had only been compounded. It seemed to eventually show the die back symptoms again every time after a couple of weeks, but this time it is different. It seems to be holding its gloss, so maybe the wet sanding actually helped, and the symptoms were only on the surface. I'm gonna do the hood last, and I am going to redo the wet sanding. After I do it, and polish it myself, we will see how long it lasts. Just wanted to throw that in though, because I didn't want you guys to think I sanded the entire headlight lids for an unknown reason.

The reason I jumped to the headlights after the hatch was because I was running out of day light and I knew that I could get those done quickly.

Here is a pic of the headlight covers prepared and the surrounding body panels taped



And here is a picture of them after the first compounding step and then a complete wet sanding



The headlights finished out just fine and got a good coat of paint sealant. I am now 14 hours into the correction.

I put in an order to AG for some M105 and some more cutting pads. I'm gonna have to have them because my pads are wearing quickly. There is no way the two good lake country pads I have (that are now pretty worn) will make it through the whole rest of the car. I also picked up some microfiber cutting pads as well. The M105 should be a little quicker than the multiple steps of Ultimate compound I'm having to take now.

More to come.
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:45 PM
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Looking great. I hope in some way I was able to offer help..... just kidding.....as you can see, you will have an awesome finish.
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:40 PM
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notable results indeed ....
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:11 AM
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Amazing Results.

If im gettin this right,
you are the 2nd person to take sandpaper to this clearcoat?

I have acid rain damage that needs sanding. Im scared to do it cause of all the overhype of "thin clear coat", which i dont dispute at all, & I cant afford a repaint if i screw up.
Your actions on exactly what I have ( Blk Coupe ) show me its possible.
But , the thickness of the remaining clear coat is unknown ?

Thanx,
Mark
ps i gave up after agressive use of M105/Orange didnt phase the damage to save
whatever clear coat thickness is there for sanding.
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by cvm View Post
Amazing Results.

If im gettin this right,
you are the 2nd person to take sandpaper to this clearcoat?

I have acid rain damage that needs sanding. Im scared to do it cause of all the overhype of "thin clear coat", which i dont dispute at all, & I cant afford a repaint if i screw up.
Your actions on exactly what I have ( Blk Coupe ) show me its possible.
But , the thickness of the remaining clear coat is unknown ?

Thanx,
Mark
ps i gave up after agressive use of M105/Orange didnt phase the damage to save
whatever clear coat thickness is there for sanding.
I am.

This is the history of the damage:

1. Car was in a situation where powder coat paint leaked from a business exhaust fan and landed on a whole parking lot full of cars, mine was one of them. The first detailer that tried to remove the damage clayed the car, and loaded his clay up in the process. It scratched the paint or marred it pretty good.

2. The second detail was done by the same guy, and he attempted to fix the scratches left by claying. He used a rotary buffer and swirled the car up beyond recognition. It is absolutely unbelieveable how many swirls are in the paint. They cover the entire car.

At this point, I was concerned about paint thickness, so I had it checked by a guy near the Atlanta, GA area name Bryan Burnworth of Peachstate Detail LLC. He had a special thickness guage for use with cars that have composite bodies. He determined there to be enough paint there for the fix.

3. The third detail was done by a different guy, and he was supposed to fix the swirls. He (without me knowing he planned to do it) wet sanded the car with what he claims was 2500 grit. He then came back and polished the car, but apparently his pads were worn out or he didn't use an agressive enough compound. Either way, it wasn't right, so I gave up on letting people try to fix it and took the project on myself. He hardly removed any clear, because he did not cut it down flat. Paint, when applied in the usual way, will have an orange peel like texture. Many things affect this including humidity, air temp, type of paint / reducer speed, etc. -point is, most cars will have some but of texture to the paint. When he wet sanded the car, he barely knocked the tops of the high spots off of the orange peel. You can still see numerous glossy areas down in the lower areas of the orange peel. This is kind of hard to expalin, but maybe you understand

I have some buffing experience from doing custom paint work, but only with a rotary and wool pads. No way I was taking that to this car because of fear of swirls.

I bought a 7424XP D/A from Autogeek and the needed supplies to start on the project. I am now moving to the M105 (which I got in the mail yesterday) as the first compounding step. Hopefully this will be more aggressive than the Ultimate compound, which is what I was using.

---------

The car's paint history is as follows:

It was factory when I bought it in 2008 except for the hood (which is aftermarket). The car was in a front end collsion and the hood, front nose bumper cover, and headlight covers were repainted.

Last year about this time, I hit a deer on the way to work one morning. The car sustained moderate nose damage and numerous other small nicks and scratches all over it from leaving the roadway. Most of it was repainted. Everything but the hood, headlight covers, and left front fender were repainted in the repair.

So, technically, the only thing I am really worried about as far as clear thickness is that left front fender. I'm just going to be very careful there. If your car has factory paint, I would be very cautious aboiut doing any kind of serious sanding, because the factory clear on these cars is very thin and very hard.

The water spots may be pretty deep. You say you have already tried M105, which is pretty aggressive. I might try the method I am doing with a 3000 grit trizact pad, but I would only do one in a test area first (in a not so noticable spot). I would not apply much pressure at all, but only lightly dust it. If you can see well enough to see if you are removing the defect, you should watch with each swipe of the trizact pad, and the second it is gone, stop. Then try to hit it with M105, which should easily remove the scratches left with the trizact pad. If any of them require significant pressure and/or prolonged sanding to get them out, I would not go further. You would be surprised though how many defects are only on or just under the surface of the clear. Unless it is a rock chip or some other deep scratch which goes all the way down to the panel, I be it will come out. -But use due caution though, because like I said, the clear is thin.

When you get the project done, I would keep a good coat of wax or paint sealant on the car if there is any chance of defects happening again, like the ones you are trying to remove.
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:08 PM
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J S Machine,
Thanx for the informative reply.
Bryan is like some Guru is'nt he?
Probably as pricey as he is good, and justified.
Dont really want to ask why u didnt use him over the airwaves,
but doesnt look like u needed him either by your results.
Yea you gotta lot more clear to play with than i do ( factory ).
Will look into the trizacts, thx. You're not the first ive heard good things about them from.
And yea my small test area will be the removeable roof panel caus its the worst and i can handle gettin that painted if need be.
Still waitin to grow some & hit my car w sandpaper if ya know what i mean.
Thx again
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:07 AM
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Next up was the front fender. I have been working on this a little every day for three days. Finally finished it last night. I used the new M105 and it worked better, but still not very fast. Definitely better than the Ultimate compound. This left front fender was never painted in the deer accident last year. For some reason I was thinking it had been done, but it had not. This was factory clear. Another way I can tell is because the color is slightly off..it is not as deep as the surfaces that were redone. In other words, it has faded over time. The clear was loaded with scratches from probably twelve years of abuse in it's life, as well as newer scratches instilled by the last detailer's attempt. It was especially challenging because it was the first side panel. Let's just say I took the easy way out by doing the top ones first..Wake up call

Here is the fender wet sanded with the trizact pad waiting to be hit with the first compound step and M105





Here are the finished pics. The light is a regular desk lamp with one of the brightest screw in flourescents bulbs you can buy. Everything has been wiped with alcohol.







Getting into that spot where the hole is was very dificult. The small pads worked pretty good, but I still had to do a little hand compounding. That was easier than I expected it would be. I'm 18 hours in now
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:09 AM
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Just realized how bad these pictures suck. My phone camera takes great pics when there is plenty of light apparently, but terrible with low light
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:19 AM
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Wow, that is amazing. And a lot of work. I'd be afraid to drive it or wash it after getting the surface looking that good!
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Old 11-09-2012, 03:19 PM
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Great job JS
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Old 11-10-2012, 07:13 AM
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Thanks for the comments folks.

Started on the back bumper cover last night. I spent two hours sanding the small RIDS everywhere. I took these pics first just to highlight some of the areas.





I think the most puzzling part of this entire correction are these random RIDS that are very noticeable. Some of them make no sense. I can understand a deep scratch like this one that is kind of in a straight line, but the others I found are just unexplainable. This straight line scratch was not too deep to completely remove with sanding, even though it may appear that way. This is right behind the passenger rear tire



This is one of those scratches that don't make sense. I don't remember this being on the car, but it could have been. I'm pretty sure this isn't a stress crack in the paint. The only thing that I can explain this with is maybe a scratch from when the bumper cover had fresh paint and the body shop was reassembling it. Still, I don't think they would make a mistake like this; especially let it go out the door. Look right below the reflection of the light in that bend on the edge



This is another one that makes no sense whatsoever. I have no idea what even caused this scratch. Maybe somebody took a mini pitchfork and decided to rub it on the side of the car..maybe a fork?? Whatever it is, it is too deep to safely remove



And here are some poor pictures of the bumper after sanding was completed





Maybe today I will be able to start buffing on it. I want to try to get this done by tomorrow night.

20 hours in now.
J S Machine is offline  

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