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Friendly advice from someone who has wasted a LOT of money and time on similar whiz-bang snake oil products...
Save your money. Period. Buy products from trusted, well-established brands. Listen to advice from professional detailers. Use what they recommend. Do you see the pros using "F11 Topcoat"? Nope. These magical spray products are nothing more than synthetic spray sealants. There are plenty of similar products being offered by popular brands at much, much better prices. Do your homework and save yourself a TON of money.
For example: A gallon of F11 Topcoat is currently "on sale" on their website for $200. Holy crap! You can get a gallon of P&S "Bead Maker" spray sealant for just $33. And, it does the same thing as what F11 claims to do. You spray it on, buff it off, and it cures into a durable shield. You can use it as a drying aid, as a clay lube, as a stand-alone sealant or as a topper for base sealants or waxes, and it is great on paint, chrome, glass, etc. The difference is that Bead Maker has been around a lonnnng time, it comes from a very reputable manufacturer, and it is known to work well and last long.
Bead Maker is just one awesome spray sealant. There are other great ones out there that are known to work well. Nanoskin "Nano Shock", McKee's37 "Hydro Blue", CarPro "Reload", etc. Hell, the new Wolfgang "Uber SiO2 Silica Spray" is actually HALF the price of F11. LMFAO!
My go-to spray sealant for my daily driver has been Meguiar's "D156 Xpress Spray Wax", but when my gallon is gone, I am replacing it with P&S "Bead Maker". I was verrrry impressed with the 16oz bottle I tried. I am buying a gallon soon. Less expensive than the Meguiar's, more durable, and noticeably adds more gloss to the finish. I'm telling you, lay down a coat of your favorite sealant (daily driver is currently covered with Jescar Powerlock), let it cure, then apply a spray sealant like the ones I listed. You will never use F11 Topcoat again. Take the money you saved and buy yourself some lap dances.
FYRARMS, I read and respect YOUR advice, Wish I had read THIS thread before the AUTOGEEK 25% off
Black Friday Sale.
I paid $66.75 ($89-25%) for a Gallon of the Black Fire SiO2 Spray and 25% off Very Expensive Pinacle
Soveran Wax.
I already own an old Bottle of Black Diamond WET FIRE Paint Sealant that needs to be applied, IF and When
I get around to finishing my Clear Coat correction on my 20K mile 2012 Grand Sport.
I also bought a bottle of CarPro ECH2O (Waterless Car Wash) after I read a Detailed Image Forum about
mixing the ECH2O & Black Fire SiO2 into a Finishing Spray.......
any updates on F-11 - since I inquired about it to the company they keep sending me adds - but those I spoke to stated it looks great but does not last - that is what I saw on my neighbors truck
with all the praise in this thread looking for any updates
As a pro detailer, Fyrarms has it nailed. Bottom line the stuff is good a for a few weeks/month depending on how often you wash your car. I have not read the contents but know this guy has had products under other names and they just were not that impressive. Great marketing to suck in the naive.
any updates on F-11 - since I inquired about it to the company they keep sending me adds - but those I spoke to stated it looks great but does not last - that is what I saw on my neighbors truck
with all the praise in this thread looking for any updates
I bought a bottle a while back .I get about 8 to 10 emails a week to reorder. Not happening i hate when a company starts to do this.
PS Nothing to write home about.
I bought a bottle a while back .I get about 8 to 10 emails a week to reorder. Not happening i hate when a company starts to do this.
PS Nothing to write home about.
I've been using F11 for about three years and can attest that the stuff works extremely well (sorry FyrArms - you ought to try it before commenting irrespective of your vast experience with snake oil). I bought the triple pack 3 years ago and have just opened the last 16oz container. The first two 16 oz bottles managed to coat 2 SUVs, My CT6 Cadillac, an Audi S5 cabriolet and my C7 Vert multiple times. After applying the F11, the surface is so slippery nothing will stay on it including the spray bottle or the microfiber cloths - everything just slides off. Dust and grime don't adhere unlike wax products. I try to re-coat the cars about every 6 months, but I don't always adhere to that schedule - my CT6 went a year between coats - did it yesterday - it looks brand new.
As far as their incessant emails, put them in junk mail until you need to purchase more. Works like a charm - no annoying advertisements and yet you don't have to research them again when you need it - just look in your junk mail to find them.
I've been using F11 for about three years and can attest that the stuff works extremely well (sorry FyrArms - you ought to try it before commenting irrespective of your vast experience with snake oil).
a) It is a synthetic spray sealant. Of course, it works. I never said it wouldn't work. What I actually DID say is that there are several products on the market that are applied the same way, and that accomplish the same goals---at a mere fraction of the price of the F11. If you are happy with spending that much money on a spray sealant, good for you. I honestly don't care what you use on your own vehicles.
b) I trust professional detailers. Not Facebook ads. Brian at Apex Detail does the most honest and thorough product reviews on his YouTube channel, and he does a perfect job of breaking down exactly what F11 is all about, how it works, and how it compares to other products. He compares it directly to Nanoskin "Nano Shock", which can literally be purchased for $10 per bottle on Autogeek. To summarize, Brian says it does work. He just will never recommend it, as there are several other products doing the same thing for 1/4 the price.
Dear Fyr - Let's be clear. I never claimed you said F11 didn't work. What I did say was you're out of bounds commenting on something with no first hand knowledge - especially in a negative light. You do say that all things other than old reliable products (Simonize perhaps?) are essentially "snake oil." Hardly a positive connotation, unless of course, someone has invented a new snake oil that DOES work. So my assumption is that you are negative on this and other "like" products because of their cost.
I researched NanoShock and read the product description on their website. They claim you don't have to wax your car "as often" when using this product. With F11, you never have to wax the car, so for about 20% of the price, you get to continue to do the work of waxing your car and still have the added cost of those supplies. No thanks. I'd rather just skip it, which is what I do, because the car doesn't need it.
Lastly, I prefer to trust my own eyes, knowledge and experience over that of any vendor, including professional detailers doing video reviews online.
You do say that all things other than old reliable products (Simonize perhaps?) are essentially "snake oil."
No. That is not what I said. And, I have never used Simonize products.
So my assumption is that you are negative on this and other "like" products because of their cost.
No. I am negative on this product because of the value, not just the "cost". F11 is a spray sealant that will last a few months on a daily driver. Period. That is all it is. A gallon of it is $200. Similar spray sealants in the exact same product category are under $50 per gallon. Why would I pay 4 times as much for a product that achieves similar results as the less expensive product? There is no value in that.
I researched NanoShock and read the product description on their website. They claim you don't have to wax your car "as often" when using this product.
Correct. When using spray sealants as toppers for base sealants or base waxes, the spray sealant becomes the sacrificial layer. Meaning, it will wear off before the products underneath it. Hence, you are extending the time between your sealant or wax jobs. However, Nano Shock, just like F11 and every other spray sealant on the market, can be applied directly to the bare paint and can be used as a stand-alone means of protection. You don't need to wax a vehicle to use it.
With F11, you never have to wax the car, so for about 20% of the price, you get to continue to do the work of waxing your car and still have the added cost of those supplies. No thanks. I'd rather just skip it, which is what I do, because the car doesn't need it.
No. As I explained above, you do not need to apply wax to a car to use Nano Shock or any other spray sealant. I don't think you actually understand the chemistry of these products. Synthetic sealants are designed to be applied to bare clean paint, or as toppers to paste or liquid base sealants.. They are not designed to be applied on top of a wax. You can apply them to a waxed finish, but the longevity of the spray sealant will be shortened. Again, sacrificial layer. If anything, waxes are to be applied on top of sealants.
Lastly, I prefer to trust my own eyes, knowledge and experience over that of any vendor, including professional detailers doing video reviews online.
Yes, because you surely are more knowledgeable and experienced than those who do it every day for a living. Sounds legit.
Like I said, it is great you like F11. That's just awesome! It is your money, and if you are happy spending 4 times as much for a spray sealant, knock yourself out. There are many others who fell for the Facebook ads, who don't question why F11 isn't sold anywhere other than their own website, and who don't question why the MSDS on the product isn't available. Ducora, who actually makes F11 Topcoat, doesn't list it on their site either. I suppose they don't want anyone to see that their ingredients are pretty much the same as everyone else's. Glad you like it, though!
As a pro detailer that does not waste my time reviewing products online but am a total geek when it comes to coatings, this is one of those that works as well as the gas station "sealants" I have tried more products than anyone on the planet, including F11, and in my tests it simply did not hold up compared to the name brand ceramics. At best it compares to HydroSilex that gives a few months of shine/protection.
I don't give a crap what anyone says, and I suspect FZ1 is a seller of F11, or associated in some way shape or form. But my completely unbiased testing of the product showed it was not as good as claimed.and lasted a few months at best. I made a living delivering the best products to my customers, if F11 was any good I would have been all over it. Read that as maximizing my profit and F11 simply did not deliver. So FZ1 you can argue your pants off but in the real world where profit and results make a HUGE difference F11 was not going to be one of them in my selection of products. Geez my Zaino details out did it.
Ceramics? Are we now comparing F11 to a ceramic coating? Talk about expensive. DIY kits come with what, 30 ml of product? That's more than 100 times more expensive than NanoShock and 20 times as costly than F11 for a home application. For a Pro to apply it, please tell us how much that is.
While I hear that ceramic coatings provide superior longevity but are much, much more expensive (I guess everyone has a price point limitation), that wouldn't make me label them as "snake oil" the way some do.
Personally, I'm looking forward to a compare and contrast study of the molecular structures of ceramic coatings, NanoShock and F11 so that we can all better understand the value proposition of each product. Maybe the vendors rather than lay people will weigh in?
ps- I'm a customer, not a salesperson of F11. BTW, I think their lead time is atrocious and their constant and overly frequent emails annoying. But their product, I like.
FYI, NanoShock's own website says "you don't need to wax AS OFTEN."
Did you read a word I typed? Yes, when you apply ANY spray sealant over a wax, it will increase the time between wax jobs. The spray sealant becomes the sacrificial layer. What aren't you understanding? Nano Shock is a one-step polymer sealant, like F11 and pretty much any other.
You usually get what you pay for. 20% of the cost. 20% of the value.
Not sure what math you are using, but that is exactly my point. You DO get what you pay for. You are getting a 16oz bottle of a polymer spray sealant that might last a few months on bare paint. $10 for the bottle of Nano Shock. $60 for the bottle of F11. I would love someone---anyone---to explain how F11 is worth 6 times the price.
Personally, I'm looking forward to a compare and contrast study of the molecular structures of ceramic coatings, NanoShock and F11 so that we can all better understand the value proposition of each product. Maybe the vendors rather than lay people will weigh in?
The MSDS sheets for most coatings are available. The MSDS sheets for all Nanoskin products are available. Ducora doesn't share the sheet for F11. Hiding something, maybe?
Jimbo briefly mentions the MSDS for F11 in his initial review video. Maybe he was able to get one from Ducora. Doesn't sound like it matters, as he says the best comparison to F11 is Meguiar's D156 Xpress.
Credentials
Why do you insist on insulting me? I read every word you have written. It seems to me, you believe that you are an expert on this topic, irrespective of any experience with the specific product in question. I will admit that I do not understand the chemical make up each of the various sealants on the market. But, why do you believe you understand them? Since you have posited this as a challenge, perhaps you can be compelled to identify what your own expert credentials are in this regard?
In fact, how do you know all of these products are the same (I assume with the exception of the packing and labeling)? Are any of them different? Please, enlighten us.
Value Prop
My experience is that F11 lasts at least six months per application - since you have no experience with it, let's use mine as the basis here. You talk about not liking F11 because of the value proposition. Let's keep this simple. If you wash and treat your car every other month with 2 oz of Nano (and then wax over it, the nano will cost you $7.50 per year plus the cost of the wax. With F11 ($200/gal), my experience as I said before, is it lasts a minimum of 6 months. So @2 oz twice a year = $6.25. If the wax the manufacturer recommends you use with Nano costs you $5 / year, I'm way ahead of you even if I use twice the amount of F11. Don't forget, you get to apply the Nano and the wax 3x as often as I apply F11.
Now let's look at ceramics. What's the value proposition there? For a DIY kit it's roughly ~$70 for one of the cheapest kits online. It provides 30 ml (one ounce) of product. On a volume basis, I think you would conclude that ceramic is nothing more than gold infused snake oil. Per volume, it is actually 112 times more costly than your Nano product ($10 / 16 oz). But if you look at it differently, some people might conclude that it is a reasonable value proposition. How? Keep reading...
How long would a ceramic coating have to last to equal F11 or Nano? Alright, let me do the math. Even if I use twice as much F11 (IOW 8 oz per year = $12.50) one ceramic coating treatment would have to last $70/$12.50 = 5.6 years. The question is will it last that long? I do not know, but that's the math. If the ceramic does last that long, it's probably worth it if you value the cost of your elbow grease and the time involved.
Botton Line: Ceramics, F11 and Nano all present different value propositions and depending upon the beholder, one may be favored over the others, and no one is really wrong. They just value things differently, and it doesn't take denigrating others and other products to do the evaluation.
Credibility
You conclude that F11 has something to hide because they do not post an MSDS online for your edification. Maybe you're right; maybe they have something to hide. Perhaps they are protecting a trade secret rather than just trying to fool prospective customers? How would you know? You really don't know, but by saying that they are hiding because there's nothing different about it, is simply self-serving. Your conclusions support your preconceived notions, so therefore created facts, no? And that is why I am challenging you. Your anecdotes are not facts. You don't know what the product is made of, you haven't used it, can't determine what it is, but conclude that it is the same as much cheaper products and is to be dismissed out of hand. I'm sorry, I just don't subscribe to that methodology.
Lastly,I believe it's appropriate that I pose your question back to you - have you read (and more importantly understood) anything I've written? I ask because it appears reading comprehension is not your strong suit. Calling others out for doing something you yourself have done is called projection. Not bothering to check either web site to see what the manufacturer recommends regarding wax is just laziness, as is assuming one is an expert without actually doing the analysis.
Thanks for your time. And I'm glad you're happy that I'm happy with F11.
I do not disagree that your value prop as a professional detailer is not maximized using F11. You would prefer your customers to frequent your business much more often than F11 would require them to visit. On the other hand, ceramics pose a proposition where you can maximize a customer visit because the material itself is marketed as a professional application. There are DIY kits, but ceramics need trained techs to do it right and to make it last. And you can charge premium prices for that expertise and labor, and the material itself ($70/oz isn't cheap).
Further, PPF wraps are another high-end protectant being heavily marketed as a professional tech installation that can then be ceramic coated etc.Hard to sell that stuff if the clietel isn't coming in for a detailing every couple of months.
I totally agree that other products and processes help pros to maximize their value proposition. F11 on the other hand is your competitor at least for detailing and ceramics end of it.
Why do you insist on insulting me? I read every word you have written.
I haven’t insulted you. If you feel insulted, that is your own personal issue. You claim to have read every word I have written, yet you keep ignoring the fact that I have repeated myself in saying that Nano Shock (or any other spray sealant) does NOT need to be applied over wax, under wax, with wax, etc., period. It is a one-step polymer sealant. It is most often used during the clay bar process as a means of removing surface contaminants and sealing the paint in one step. You don’t clay bar a freshly-waxed surface. LOL
It seems to me, you believe that you are an expert on this topic
Regardless of your personal perception of my own beliefs, I am far from an expert on this topic. That is why I trust the independent product tests done by actual experts. Perhaps you should, as well. Yes?
Since you have posited this as a challenge
No challenge has been posted by me, other than asking what justifies F11 costing up to 6 times more than some other spray sealants.
My experience is that F11 lasts at least six months per application
Your personal experience requires definition. At what point do you personally consider your vehicle to be needing another coat of F11? What are the signs for you? Are you claiming that a single application of F11 will last 6 months on a vehicle that is driven daily? If so, that is approximately double to triple the length of time that professional detailers are seeing. Well done!
You talk about not liking F11 because of the value proposition. Let's keep this simple
Again, you keep talking about “wax”, despite claiming to have read what I have posted. Wax is not needed. Wax isn’t an issue. You are fixated on wax. We are talking about using spray sealants as a stand-alone means of paint protection. Why are you adding the price of wax into the price of spray sealants? Just stop. I regularly maintain a family member's vehicle with nothing but Nano Shock and P&S Bead Maker spray sealants as a means of paint protection (her choice, not mine). There isn't any wax on her car.
You conclude that F11 has something to hide because they do not post an MSDS online
No. I offered it as a possible explanation, not a conclusion. "Reading comprehension", remember?
I believe it's appropriate that I pose your question back to you - have you read (and more importantly understood) anything I've written?
Yes.
I ask because it appears reading comprehension is not your strong suit.
Pot? Kettle?
Calling others out
What are you talking about? You chose to enter this discussion. I said you are welcome to spend your money as you wish and use whatever you like. How were you “called out”?
Not bothering to check either web site to see what the manufacturer recommends regarding wax is just laziness
There you go again with the wax nonsense. LOL! Why do you keep bringing up wax? I thought reading comprehension was important to you. Wax has absolutely ZERO to do with the products being discussed here.
as is assuming one is an expert without actually doing the analysis
I am no expert, which is why I trust the experts. Your comment is ironic, considering you said you don’t even trust professional detailers who test and review the products.
It is obvious that neither one of us will change our minds regarding F11, so there is no point in discussing it any further. I will continue to see it for what I believe it is, as will you. To me, it is just a severely overpriced polymer spray sealant. Based on the professional detailers I trust who have tested it, it is nothing special, and several other less expensive spray sealants work just as well or better. To you, it is bottled awesome sauce. Enjoy it!
FWIW, all that matters at the end of the day is if using a product works FOR YOU, then by all means continue. Lotsa people LOVE Beadmaker; I just hadda know what all the hubub was about so I got a bottle and gave it a try in a few different situations. While it's an entertaining product, I found it functionally useless given my routines but still glad I gave it a go so I had first hand experience. Many times I've had F11 in my cart because it's such a polarizing product that my curiosity was piqued...but I could never find it under $50 and my curiosity *does* have it's limits concerning items of curiosity such as F11.
Now I've spent $300+ for 30ml of a coating to give it a try and thousands on other coatings just so I could experience them firsthand but for some reason I just can't swallow $50 for F11; it may be their overly aggressive marketing and questionable social media tactics...dunno.
That said, if you like F11 I'd say keep using it and keep smiling when you look at your car 'cuz that's all that really matters.
Nanoskin Nano Shock Instant Lubricant Sealant 16 oz.
Cleans, shines, protects and lubricates all in one!
Nanoskin Nano Shock Instant Lubricant Sealant is a spray on sealant that can also be used as a quick detail spray, waterless wash and lubricant for the Nanoskin Autoscrub System! Use Nano Shock regularly to maintain the shine and protection of your wax, sealant or coating. It creates a high-gloss polymer barrier that dissipates static so your vehicle stays cleaner, longer. Regular application will extend your existing paint protection so you don’t have to wax as often.
11-17-2018, 03:28 PM
To summarize, Brian says it does work. He just will never recommend it, as there are several other products doing the same thing for 1/4 the price.
