Okay, I am committed to adding an intercooled forced induction sytem to my motor, and have already purchased the turbo's and wastegates. They were supposed to be here today, but I can't get them until Monday cause everybody's at PRI.

My dilemma is that I've called around for estimates on getting the headers, downpipes, exhaust, intercooler, cold air induction, etc. done and the prices I have gathered are pretty steep. Two shops, TRZ Motorsports and Rad Rods by Troy (Troy Trepanier, he's the one that did John Meaney's 1300hp C4 in this month's Popular Hot Rodding) say $12,000 -$14,000. That doesn't include the turbo's or wastegates - just headers, intercooler, exhaust, cold air induction. That's alot of money, about double what I expected. I have gone around to a few other message boards and have seen some other turbo kits going for half that. I realize a kit is going to be cheaper than a custom 'one off' job, and there certainly aren't any kits out there for a twin turbo C3. I know that TRZ and Rad Rods are among the best in the country, and they have plenty of experience, so the results would be show quality, but I can't help but think that it's too much to pay.

I currently don't not have any welding experience, but for that kind of money I am really tempted to buy a tig welding rig, and give it a shot.

A local shop that does alot of street/strip stuff - 4 links, custom headers and exhaust, roll cages, etc - said he could do it for about half that. I've seen his work, and it's all very good - he did my fuel tank and a couple of other small stuff. The problem is I don't think he has much experience doing a turbo setup. He says he has, but I don't know for sure. I want it done right, and the way I look at it is that it's still gonna cost alot if it's done wrong, maybe even more in the long run, so whay not get it done by someone who really knows what they are doing.

Another local guy, known around the area for being one of the best Turbo Buick guru's, says it's too much as well.

 

Neat project Monty. I appreciate superchargers, but turbos appeal to me because of the "something for nothing" philosophy. Of course, all that nothingness does cost, doesn't it?

I think the prices quoted are too much. How about going with a kit, getting the guy you've already worked with to install it, run the beast, then if you decide that there's something about the aesthetics or performance that you want to modify, you can have it done. It'd probably still be less expensive. You're working with low pressures and I would imagine that the hardest part of the job will be having the patience to fit the pieces properly. The welding should be a breeze.

Good luck!

 

Monty I am not a welder but the little experience I have had with a Tig was a breeze.You could practice on the same type material and get it down pretty quickly.I don,t think you would need an Industial welder either making it even less expensive.Afterwords you could use the welder for other custom fabricated brackets ect.See what Harbor Freight has them priced at.

 

Monty,
As you already know that I share some of the same insanity that tends to breed in this place, I have the following comments.

My experience at age 20 was lots of metalworking for the military. I always got to temper my skills using their aircraft as the playing field. Shortly thereafter, I graduated college (engineering), and went to work for ALCOA (Aluminum Company of America). Through the 7 yrs that I worked there, I determined that so long as I had so much raw material at my disposal, I may as well use some. Purchased a Hobart mig welder (approx. $700 for the 220V model) at about age 25. I had never actually welded prior (excluding crackerbox). I practiced, practiced, and eventually became fairly good. I really tried to concentrate on penetration, then worked up to "pretty". I have made all the brackets, and other items that are on my cars. I likewise became known as the person to take broken "stuff" to for repair. I later upgraded the MIG by buying the seperate handle just for aluminum, because it is no fun yanking liners to swap from steel/SS to aluminum. This all worked pretty well.

Then got the itch to start modifying heads (moving runner walls to increase flow) and intakes (you know the affliction, all too well), so I also bought a Hobart squarewave TIG ($2,500). Now this machine will make some very nice welds, but you are back to a stick welder. Again, the basics that I taught myself on the MIG allowed the continuation to the TIG. I have since added other items to my garage (must have the required plasma arc if you have an industrial compressor).

Bottom line, if the desire is there to learn, you find that there are not many limitations. Too bad, we don't live closer, I would be glad to allow you some seat time with the welders. If you want to do it yourself, I believe that you have the will and the aptitude for success in this project.

Next purchase will be the industrial (maybe 14") chopsaw. I need this, as I have bought a bunch of 3" and 4" mandrel bent tubing that I am going to build blower discharge/intake piping from (to replace the 2-1/4", 2.5").

BTW, if I had to pay someone to do the work on my cars, I would not be able to afford to continue doing these cars. Remember, I have 4 kids that like to eat, and a wife that likes to live in a house. 12-14K$ is too high.

Best of Luck with your decision,
Aaron

 

Monty,

You might want to investigate what it would cost to have the parts made outside of the US. There's a guy called Juha Martikainen in Finland and he has a very popular shop there http://wwnet.fi/amworks

This guy built my manifold and does intercoolers, headers,.. the works.

Marck

 

FWIW, I would talk to the vendors and see how they arrived at that pricing.

If you break it down, I think you said somewhere the materials were going to be like $3000 - if that were true (for example) then your vendors want about $10,000 for labor.

If they are charging $50 / hr (just as a for-instance) that means they want 200 hours of work (5 weeks for one guy full-time) to fab one set of headers - that seems very high to fab 20 or 30 feet of light-guage tubing.

Try asking your other shop how many hours they are planning - and see if you can get your preferred guys down to a more reasonable number. I'm no expert, but I'd have hard time seeing more than 1 to 2 weeks to make up the pipe -

For comparison, Lingenfelter (who ain't cheap) gets only a $thousand or so for standard long-tubes - labor and material and profit - so I'd have to ask myself, can a custom header be 10 times more welding and bending? Dunno, but it seems high.

My 2 cents, HTH.

drj

 

When you said, you talked to local guru, did you meant Pete Barton????
If it was him than forget it, but if it was not than you can try him and see what he has to say.
His shop is located in Melrose Park and phone #708-450-1095.
Address is 2900 Soffel in Melrose Park IL.
Place is caled ANS Performance & Engineering, Inc.

Mostly Grand Nationals and Chevy cars you going to find in his shop. He was the first local guy to take his Buick to 9 sec.

Ziggy

 

Ziggy,

The Turbo Buick guy I was talking about is the owner of Street Performance, Gary I think, located on Oakton in Park Ridge.

Thanks for the number for ANS, I've heard of them before.

I also posted this question over on the Headsupreview.com forum, whcih is geared towards NMCA/NSCA racers, and most of the guys over there siad the price was pretty fair actually. It seems most racers think the price is about right, and most street guys think the price is too high. Go figure. All I know is that I could apply the difference to a new paint job, or 17"/18" wheels/tires, or a Tom's Differential's 31 spline IRS setup.

I'm supposed to get the written, itemized estimate in the mail Monday or Tuesday.

Ziggy, I'm going down to Rad Rods by Troy next saturday for a written estimate from them, want to go with me?

 

My bad.I thought you had a kit of sorts with assorted bends ect that would need cut to lenght prefitted and then weld.Have you talked with Corkey Bell about the possibility of his shop doing this for you?

 

No, I will definitely keep it local for practical reasons. There are enough options here in the Chicago area. Even if an out of state shop could do it cheaper, the cost and effort of shipping my car there and back would diminish the cost savings.

The more I hear from professional shops that have a reputation for doing custom turbo systems, and from people that have had successful custom turbo systems designed and fabricated, the more I am starting to realize the price, while a little high, is not completely out of line. There's a thread over on the C4 Tech board abotu turbo systems for LT1's, and Speeddemon says they charge $10K+ as well.

 

Personally, I would mock up a set of POS headers, get all the parts together as you have been doing already, get things set up to where everything fits. (wastegates, outlets, inlets, exhuast, intercooler, and hood) pull the headers you build and have them built just as you made out of 321 SS by a pro. So I guess I would aim for the middle. Most of it you do, some for the shop.

I can see how the price shoots up there real quick, the thing is, that's a lot of money!

 

Bill,

It is alot of money, but I am realizing that it's what it costs. I've posted a simialr question on several other boards, spoken to other shops who are experienced in fabricating 'one off' turbo systems and the consensus is that it's a $10K+ job, especially considering the material used and the reputaion/quality of the people doing it.

It may cost be alot of money, but if any other C3'er is thinking about it, they could benefit from my project. It would be alot easier to make a jig from the headers I get, and make subsequent duplicates of it.

One reason I am not too worried about the money is that it's coming from 2 $5000 referral bonuses from referring two other PMI certified Project Managers to my company. I've already maxed out my 401k and IRA for the year, plus some other savings, so why not have some irresponsible fun?