A couple of weeks ago I called a local shop to get an estimate for fabricating an intercooled, twin turbo system fro my car - custom headers, custom intercooler, full exhaust and mufflers. I was quoted $12,000-$14,000, not inlcuding the turbochargers and wastegates. I have to buy those seperately. I finally get the written estimate and it's $15,010! Jeez, that's crazy. I could buy a pretty decent '69 Camaro or Chevelle SS project car for that.

I've already bought the turbo's and intercoolers so I'm at least partially committed, but I'm having second thoughts on doing it afterall. It just doens't make much sense to have a $40,000 engine in a $15,000 car.

If I had the time to it, I'd really consider buying a band saw and tig welder and just trying to do it myself. I have no doubt that the end result would be very nice, but it seems stupid to spend that kind of money.

 

Monty,
As I stated before, if I had to pay for all the mods that I undertake on my project cars, I would be in the poor house. Besides my wife and kids like to eat, and Ti valves don't go down well.

I feel for you, man!

Aaron

 

I know. You know how it is I'm sure. I just don't have the time or currently possess the skill to tackle this type of project on my own. If I pay someone with the experience to do it, I can have it done by mid March, if I try to do it could be years....

Speed costs money...

 

Check out this months "SUPER ROD" magazine (AWESOME mag). It's got the 'Top 100' on the cover. There is a good article in there about making your own headers. It doesn't look all that complicated, tho their example is pretty straight forward. And you would have a tig welder and a saw left over. Plus, you could say "I did it myself". :cheers:

 

Monty I would say " F.... It " and just spend a year with your motor as is. I don't think that the ole 82 will handle the load anyway. The kit car cobra or a 60's chevy all race engineered out is the way to go.

 

George and Karl,

I'm sure you guys can relate - once you get an idea in your head, and you start visualizing the process and the result, it's very difficult to not do it, at least for me.

Now that I've gotten to the point of having ordered the turbos and wategates, gotten an estimate for the exhaust fabrication, and scheduled to have it done, it feels like it would be too late to change my mind. It's been bugging me for a couple fo years now, and now that I've reached this point...

I'm sure a doctor would tell me I have some kinda obsessive disorder focused on power and speed (HAR!, HAR!, HAR! - in my best Tim Allen voice).

 

AKS, I do ALL my mods myself and I'm still in the poor house ;) .

Monty, I know your sickness. I wonder if envy is contagious :crazy: . I have to buy a new rearend this year to fix my broken one, a TKO so I can drive the car a bit further this year, JCL sidepipes for better breathing, and maybe racing seats, whew! And with all that, I just received Desktop Dyno for the 427 sbc I wish I could swing but can't :cry . That's a hard choice to make Monty, to be sooooo close to your dream and to be able to say yeah I did it, but man that is a mountain of money. :rolleyes:




[Modified by SmokedTires, 2:53 PM 12/11/2001]

 

Monty, Cars never! The only thing I’ve ever been obsessed with has two long slender legs. Then I would have to admit that I have made some really bad decisions. Kind of letting the little head make the choices.


I try to do my part and I know you do also. We all need to spend money to kick start the economy. :seeya

 

Sounds like you didn't do enough home work before buying the turbos. If it was mine I think i would try to unload the turbos without loosing your ***
I built my first turbocharged engine for the street back in 1976. I saw the article about the vette with the twin turbos and if you read it again you will see that it don't run the quarter all that well. That car is only good to brag about how much power it makes would be impressive on the dyno but when you mash on the throttle you have to wait till the turbos spool up then they make more power than you can put to the ground you lift to allow the wheels to hook up but when you lift the exhaust flow stops the turbo is pumping against high boost pressure so it quickly slows now you stand on it and again wait for it to spool up again by then the guy in the other lane with half the power just took the win light. The biggest thing i didn't like was no control of the power with a supercharger if the motor has rpm you have plenty of power but you can close the throttle part way and if you open it the power is instant. The car that was in the magazine would have been a bitch to change plugs. With all that tubing the heat would be another problem.My first though when i saw that car was it was not nearly as wonderful as the article made it sound. Maybe thats because I can say BEEN THERE DONE THAT. I think you have decided to do this but my advice would be save your money build something less impressive but faster and more practicle. I understand that you want to build something different but IMHO it is not worth the expense. :cheers:

 

Once power exceeds tractions it's a mute point ain't it?

 

I can relate to this.
What does 15K get you exactly?
I am not too sure what needs to be done on the C3's to fit them.

 

All good and interesting points.

Bart, I appreciate your comments and insight but I don't know if I would agree with your assessment that I didn't do enough homework before purchasing the turbo's. My only dilemma is the fabrication costs involved. I spoke with several well respected turbo experts and got their opinions on the proper sized turbo's, the required intercooler, compression ratio, cam specs etc. The mental wrangling involved with writing a $15K check, when you originally got a lower estimate, is the issue.

I'm not saying this is the case with your experience, but I'm sure we all know or have heard of someone who had a terrible turbo experience back in the 70's or 80's (even the 90's) and it didn't work out well, had poor drivability, reliability, durability etc - or just didn't produce the performance benefits to justify the effort and cost. Unfortunately, there are alot of factors which have contributed to these failed projects, but when you really look at the factors involved it is usually the result of a cobbled together or poorly planned design and installation. The internet is loaded with sites detailing junkyard turbo projects using turbo's from Saabs, Mitsubishi's, Thunderbirds, diesels, whatever. In those cases, the major consideration was doing it as cheaply as possible with whatever they could find at the junk yard. Additionally, most of these projects did not utilize intercoolers, or used whatever intercoolers were readily available, didn't involve proper compression adjsutments, fuel system upgrades, etc. Alot of them are done using carbs rather than EFI which is a big handicap.

It shouldn't be a surprise that these types of turbo projects result in less than spectacular results. As with any other engine modification, there is alot more to be considered than just bolting on a new part and having a go at it. Again, I'm not saying that your expereince was anything like that, but I do think those types of experiences have negatively affected the opinions and perceptions of the general 'gearhead' population.

There should be a follow up to that article in PHR. Alot of people have said the same thing you did - an 11.11 ET is not worth the moeny it took to build that system and that a lesser powered car could run the 1 /4 better than that 1300+hp car. Possibly true, but since that article was written, that car has run numerous 1/4 passes in the 10.2 -10.4 range, with trap speeds of over 164 mph. 0 to 164 mph in less than a 1/4 mile is no joke. Even more significant is the fact that the car runs the last 1/8 mile in the 3.0 flat range, which is Pro Mod territory. That is with street tires, and a stock driveline, with the exception of the 4l80 tranny. If he added slick or drag radials, and beefed up the rearend, you would see the ET's drop substantially to match the amzing potential indicated by the trap speed. Also, I know for a fact that John Meaney drives that car on the street all the time. I called Rad Rods by Troy (Troy Trepanier) who did the turbo install for him, and he said he drives that car down from Detroit all the time, which is a 4 hour drive.

Also, if you'll read the article there were some comments specifically aimed at the heat issue - they even pointed out that one of the headers tubes was within 1" of the rubber hood seal and there was no problem. I'm certainly not saying heat is not a consideration, but excessive heat is a sign of turbo inefficiency, and properly sizing the turbos can alleviate alot of heat by increasing efficiency. The compressor discharge temps, as well as the turbine temps, rise significantly when the turbo is of an improper size and design.

The system I have planned incorporates pop off valves to alleviate the problem of keeping the turbo spooled up with on/off throttle movements. They are also used as backup's to the wastegates in the event of a wastegate failure or malfunction.

The first thing people bring up as a negative regarding turbo's is turbo lag. All turbo's do have turbo lag, but you should not let the turbo lag present in OEM or junkyard projects totally influence or convince you that those types of results are indicative of the performance of all turbo applications. OEM's size turbo's based on many factors and as performance enthusiasts we all know that performance is rarely an OEM's number one consideration. Also we all know that the bean counters t the OEM's often dictate a cars desing more than the engineers do. As such, you are almost certainnly not getting the most efficienct turbocharger using the latest designs and lightest materials like you would on a professional aftermarket performance application. Realistically, the turbo lag present in a properly built turbo V8 application would be measured in hundredths of a second. That's another important factor in my application - my 427 ci motor produces alot more exhaust volume than most other engines used in turbo apps. That exhaust volume has a significant effect on turbo alg and boost threshold.

I'm certainly no expert at turbo systems, but I have been seriously looking into this for about 2 years now. There have been alot of significant improvements in turbo charging design and technology within the last few years, thanks in part to the import scene as well as the legalization of turbo's in street legal racing- such as in the NMCA/NSCA/NMRA. If you follow street legal racing then I'm sure you are aware that all the supercharger and NO2 guys are bitching and whinning becuase the turbo guys are so dominant and make such reliable power.

 

$15K gets you a pair of custom made turbo headers made from .069" 321 stainless steel. A custom made intercooler designed and built specifically to meet the requirements of the turbo applicatin and fit in the car. It get you a custom made cold air induction system to feed the turbochargrs and from the intercooler to the intake manifold, plus a pop-off safety valve, 304 stainlees down pipes, 304 stainless steel exhaust and Borla mufflers. Plus any other custom bracketry, heat shields, ceramic coating, thermal wraps, fasteners,etc.

It does not include the turbo chargers or wastegates, or any internal engine, fuel or ignition modications.

Almost $7000 of the estimate is comprised of materials alone.

 

Yeah, there were some turbo C3's, even the Duntov C3, but finding parts for them is practiclly impossible. Plus, they weren't really the nest examples of turbo applicaitons to begin with. While they were better than some, they were still Chevy's and Greenwood's early attempts at street orineted turbo applications.

I would like to hear about the magaizine article though. I have all the CF and Vette amgaizines formt he past 6-7 years, if you remember which issue it was in, I'd appreciate it.

So did you decide what you're gonna do with your motor yet?

 

If your still here Friday, come to the get together this Friday!
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zero...713726#1713726

 

BTW if it's the place in Troy, I can stop by for lunch

 

a trick that used in sports racing cars till it was outlawed was shooting extra gasoline into the exhaust system to keep the heat in there since the heat turns the impeller not the exhaust pressure. one of these cars crashed and the electric fuel pump that put in the gasoline did not shut off when the car crashed and the fireman could not put out the fire. now you know why lingenfelter charges $50,000for the twin turbo C-5

 

Monty, I'm sorry, but you've come too far to quite now. You said it yourself, you've already been planning this for two years! Maybe take a step back and enjoy the car for a while, but hold onto the turbos. You're gonna need them!

Oh, and I can't wait to see and hear about it when it's done!

Do you have any picture of this beast?

-Joe

 

Monty-

Seems like you have make up your mind on this project already, but I am still amazed by the costs you are being quoted.

Did you look at:
http://www.burnsstainless.com/index.html

for component costs? Even at $20/ft for seamless tube this whole thing still looks out of whack somehow.

Just trying to help. I have a lot of experience with oil refinery pipe networks, and if a vendor brought a proposal like this to me he'd have to work pretty hard to convince me the estimate was reasonable.

drj

 

DRJ,

Thanks, I've looked at the Burns site as well as a few other suppliers of header materials.

I'm about 99% sure I'm going with the turbo setup, but I'm still getting a couple of quotes on the fabrication aspect of it. I talked to a guy this monring from a place nearby called Charged Air Systems up in Greyslake, IL. Never heard of them before, but I'm gonna go up there friday and check out there shop. They say they are doing a twin turbo project on a '69 Camaro with a 418" LS1. Only problem is they say they won't be able to do it till late Jan/Early Feb, that would be cutting it close cause I want to enter my car in the March Chevy Vettefest.

One thing I have noticed - guys that are in the performance industry, racers, and other guys who have had custom turbo systems made say the price is about right. Normal guys like us think it's expensive.