Jump in and help them out!
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=242677

 

Did it.

I'm not sure that help in understanding is needed only by "C4 guys".

 

I will not start again here about that but the last post from Cranes site confirms what I wrote.Engine acts" Effectively" as it has recieved 2-4 degrees duration.So Crane Cams is wrong forum members are right?Crane is in the wrong business I guess?

Geeezz! Caught my self again!
Have learned my lesson and also who is full of it up there

I think I will go outside and try to teach the dogs to chirp and the cats to bark turtles to climb trees..Seems more productive

 

mountainmotor,

I would like your help. Apparently, I've done a poor job of writing. I ask that you please reread my posts and critique them for me. I didn't MEAN to contradict YOU or Crane. Somehow, I've been unclear, or misleading in my writing. I would like to learn to convey my thoughts clearly, and obviously, I've failed, here. Please help me. Where have I erred?

I hope your efforts as an animal trainer are more successful than mine as a writer. Thanks.

 

come on! i saw the topic, every ones just trying to help out :cheers: Advise on this forum should be stricly taken as advice and it recommended to be double checked, as in this case, emailing jesel, comp cams, crane, etc. as others already have. Oh well, just trying to stop the disspute. :blueangel:

 

I am worse than CFI in respect to typing/getting message across!I gotta get to work and no hard feelings.OK? Will type in different way tomorrow to explain the way I see it.
Will leave you with this to ponder for a while.How many ways can a person measure distance? If speed could not be calculated,could it be measured in time another way? Is not time engine/valve timing equated into degrees of duration?I you take a deep breath of air it is not measured but you know you took a deeper than normal breath right?Motors can't talk directly only through dyno's or driving feel.Expect motor knows it has recieved an otherwise inmeasurable breath of air.As in 2-4 degrees of it like my first post in the other thread and like Crane Cams suggests.

It's a given that all cam lobes are different but what stays constant is that the difference between runnning 1.5 and 1.6 is.030 lift on nose of cam.That moves the valve .060 total just there alone,not including opening and closing ramps.How can that be equated into time?

CFI and others,very willing to talk about this but let's be civil and pick it apart one piece at a time

On the lighter side that is not pointed towards cam topic or people on forum

I saw on the Tonight Show where a Russian had 20 or so Cats doing tricks.Jumping hoops ect.When asked how he trained them the guy said "I can't train a cat!" I found out what the particular cat likes to do then work from there.
Well I gotta tell you .Turtles will not climb trees! They putt very well with a driver club though!Patience was the key.Something I need more of.

 

Some say ya can lead a horse to water but ya can't make him drink.

 

mountain motor- Nobody questioned the effect of what you said, it's just that you phrased it incorrectly and that could have led to problems.

Instead of saying that lifters add duration, you should have said they have the effect of adding duration. It was a minor, minor point, until everyone started chiming in and things got a bit heated...

While semantics usually mean very little to car guys, it might mean something when you are plugging in numbers to a calculation, calling a tech line, deciding which cam/head setup to use, etc... :cheers:

 

Wow, I haven’t seen this many puckered sphincters online in quite awhile!

If you take the strict technical route (most shade tree mechanics would call it being ****) yes the camshaft lobe timing events aren’t affected. And yes, one would NOT want to enter in higher duration #’s into a Dyno simulator program for larger ratio rockers!

But in the real world of engine performance, the camshaft lobe profile’s absolute open/close (0.0005” over base circle) points are only part of the equation for overall cam profile performance! Camshaft dynamics are for more complicated than static measurements!

What Mountainmotor was expressing may have not been applicable to the software. But on an Engine Stand or in your garage, the Effect is measurable additional valve event duration at meaningful points on the cam’s lobe profile! This is caused by the fractional multiplication of the cam’s ramp rate from the increased lever length of the Rocker.

Even with Starret Dial Indicators, the amount of total measuring error due to magnetic/screw-in mounting apparatus, chain slack, etc., will null out the resolution needed to exactly pin point the (0.0005” over base circle) absolute open/close points of the cam in an engine. Not to mention some Cam MFG’s grinding equipment are not calibrated/cert’ed, nor particularly in spec. Just look at the ZZ9 from TPiS, it’s tolerances leave much to be desired!

So to wrap this little ditty up:
For those who love finite mathematics, you are correct. Unless the cam’s profile has been altered, the duration is unaltered!

For those like me, a shade tree mechanic, I can comprehend/interpolate what Mountainmotor was trying to express. Simply, the effect is as if slightly more cam duration was added in the useable range of the camshafts profile.

Knowledge can be used without practical logic; it works on paper (CRT’s), but is scary in real life:eek: !

BTW, CFI-EFI I thought your primer on the subject was quite eloquent!

:crazy:NanoBrain:crazy:

 

It is nice to know that I wasn't completely mis-understood by everyone. That is very kind of you to say, NanoBrain. Thank you!

 

A basic lesson must be learnt when you write on corvetteforum and every forum for that matter... Some people are a bit more edgy and can easily get frustrated if contradited, I won't name anyone but you know who you are. The fact is if this happens, don't make it worst by trying to argue with them...thats what I do and never had any trouble.

 

Anyone remember the TV program that use to come on entitled "The Constitution; That Delicate Balance"?

Panel of prominent leaders (Supreme Court Justices, Senators, authors, etc.) kicked around some of the more important issues of the day. Well, one of the parameters that was set before they all got started exchanging ideas and positions was the exact, precise usage of language.

The thrust was that in order for folks to have a meaningful and productive exchange, each must accurately understand the others words and their meaning, so the correct selection and use of words was critical and paramount.

If two or more people aren't speaking the same language or aren't applying the same meaning to the words used, agreement is about impossible.

I suspect that's what happened with the rocker ratio Vs duration increase issue.

The only way I see to solve this is for everyone to agree on the definitions to be applied to the terms used. Otherwise we'll end up with an endless back and forth with no progress made.

Just my thoughts.

Jake

 

I have a headach. :flag

 

Not to beat a dead horse but there is a good article in the April edition of "Vette" magizine entitled "Power Multipliers" that explains the effects that changing rocker arm ratios has on an engine. Just my $.02. Its an interesting article if you get a chance to read it. By the way this comment was meant to be an FYI to everyone an not directed at anyone specific.

Man now I am clarifying comments so I don't pi$$ anyone off!

Jim :flag

 

Jim,
I know what you mean! Leaving any holes open in a post can sometimes lead to disaster.He He!

I am even carefull to avoid the "what is the torque of the wing nut on my air filter top" type questions now. :D