I'm building a new engine (Toasted my last one this past weekend. Damn thing always had oiling problems. Finally got to it). I am trying to do this as cheaply as possible, as unfortunately I'm not made of money, but I have enough cash flow where I can get everything done right. How much can/should I do myself w/regards to building the short block? I can do everything else by myself. Here are my questions.

Should I just buy a short block? They seem pretty expensive. I'm willing to put in a lot of legwork.

Where's a good place to find used blocks?

Do the piston rings affect balance very much? I've been considering gapless 2nd rings, I've heard good things. I've also been considering buying a pre-balanced rotating assembly. These usually come with rings, so I'd assume they're balanced with those rings, and I'd also assume the gapless rings would weigh a bit different (but probably not too much).

What does the engine shop need to do the balance? Should everything be mounted in the block or not?

If I buy quality pistons, crank, and rod (esp if the assembly is supposed to go together) from a manufacturer such as Scat, should I count on the clearances 'already' being correct?

If I bring all these parts (block, pistons, rings, crank, rods, bearings) to the engine shop, (which I'd assume I'd need to do already, short of bearings, to have the block cleaned, bored, and honed, and the assembly balanced), how much would they charge to put the short block together and blueprint it? Worth it?

How much should I expect to pay for block cleaning, boring, honing, and assembly balancing? (I am always willing to pay extra $ for quality work, but want to make sure I'm not getting screwed)

Lastly, anyone know of good machine shops here in Dallas, TX, preferably in the north Dallas/Garland/Richardson/Plano area?

Thanks a ton guys!

Jim

 

Go to Wes Calvert's in Denton. They can hook you up with a forged piston short block for about $2k w/o a core. It'll be less if your engine is rebuildable. They have been building racing engines for a very long time.


[Modified by RatRacer, 3:35 PM 3/25/2002]

 

I'm doing this exact thing right now. Lesse here;
(1) 2 bolt short block, cast pistons are $700 at Schucks w/$210 core charge if yours is toast.
(2) Good used short blocks can be had at any wrecking yard, look for a truck 350, they're 4 bolt mains.
(3) Dunno about gapless rings
(4) Engine shop needs pistons, 1 set of rings, 1 rod brng, crank, rods & pins. Not assembled.
(5) Yes
(6) Most shops (mine anyway) will not assemble YOUR parts, only theirs.
(7) Tanking $65, boreing V8 $108, balancing rotating assy $165. Mounting pistons $40, Re-size rods $95. Overbores/forged assy's need re-balance.
(8) No.
Hope this helps........ :cheers:

 

If you want quick and easy, buy one of the GM crate engines. These are brand new engines (not rebuilt) for around $1400! http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...id=128&pid=110

If you want the excitement of hearing an engine that YOU built fire up for the first time, it's going to cost you about the same amount of $, but, hey, you can't put a price on the pride of a job well done! I bought a used engine for $175, bought an engine rebuild kit for around $450 (bearings, gaskets, pistons......). Machine work: block hot tanked, block bored .030", honed, freeze plugs and cam bearings installed, rods resized, pistons hung on rods, crank polished, reciprocating assembly balanced all together cost $602. So, without any trick parts you are looking at $1200 + minimum to do the job yourself. That doesn't include cam & heads/head work.

When I had my stuff balanced I had to give them my rods, pistons, rod bearing, ring set, harmonic balancer and flex-plate.

rocky :smash:


[Modified by rocky1, 10:28 PM 3/25/2002]

 

Why don't you fix your block instead of purchasing one. Take it to a good machine shop have it bored, the heads worked, crank turned. And go from there. You'll learn a lot and have the satisfaction of having done it yourself. Plus you can put whatever pistons, cam, heads, etc. you want to in it. There are a number of good machine shops in the metroplex.

Most of the crate engines you buy are rebuilt blocks, so what's the difference.

Unless yours is really trashed it can be salvaged.

Good Luck
:flag

 

You can get the GM 350 HO from gmpartsdirect.com (might not be the cheapest source, but is usually close) for $2,166.50. p/n 12486041. Would go with this myself, if I didn't want forged pistons and a 9000-series crank (if not forged). I vaguely remember a GM Goodwrench crate for $1300. Can't find it.

Jim

 

There's a good machine shop in Arlington. Arlington Automotive. It's run by Ed Adams and his son Eddy. Not cheap, but they do excellent work and will balance the engine if you want. They will need all of the rotating components, including flywheel, clutch&PP or torque convertor. Their Ph number is 817 281 2222.

Don't know any up in your area.

 

Sorry, wrong number it's 817 261 9022.

 

I intend to sell the block and whatever salvagable parts are in there . It's what 'was in the car' when I got it -- not #'s by any means, in fact the #'s say it's a 302 out of a '69 Z28. I have yet to tear the beast down and see what's wrong, but suffice to say I've been wanting a new engine anyway and apparently somebody's telling me I need to get started. I heard plenty of bad noises before I finally got it to the access road of the highway (where it promptly siezed, luckily while I had the clutch in and was going 10 mph about to stop). Oil pressure was fine (up until the toastage), the oil + filter had been changed recently (but not TOO recently, maybe 500 mi?)

I am not sad to see this engine go. Would rather have had it happen a little closer to home, tho.

Jim

 

You should be able to move it easily if it's indeed a 69 Z28 block. I would think the Camaro guys would drool over it.

:flag

 

Arlington Automotive machine is very good. They did a lot of work for me in the past. They are on par with Wes Calvert for price/quality. Ed does excellent bore work. He has a very high dollar boring bar.

 

I been using them for the past 15 years. Good Shop and nice guys to talk with.

 

Arlington Machine is who did the machine work on my 398 that I just finished. Gilley's Automotive assembled the bottom end for me. He charged $750 to put it together and check clearances for my valves, etc. Both came highly recommended. I thought their prices were very good. My bill at Arlington Machine was around $525 for the labor of rebuilding the bottom end. I chose some high end parts so I will just give you the labor charges.

Personally I switched fom gapless rings to file fit rings. Personally had some issues that I attributed to the gapless rings and a buddy with the same setup as I had ran into the same issues.

I would recommend both shops for the work.

 

You've got a lot of options and you'll get a lot of different opinions, so here's mine.

I don't like mass produced "crate engines". I've read too many dyno tests where a crate engine was run as it came, then torn down and all the clearances corrected, then re-dynoed. The power increase was signficant. It's not just power either, fuel economy and the life of the engine will be better went machined and built right. Right meaning close tolerances.

It's all about tolerances and GM's are pretty wide. I asked before, but never got a response: Does anyone know of a site where the tolerances are posted for all the crate engines GM sells? Bet that info will be eye-opening.

Yea, I know, I'll get responses that so and so bought such and such and did this and that, but man, the statistics show that out of ten one or two will be screamers, three or four will be real DOGS and the rest will be so-so. No way of telling what you're getting until it's too late.

Anyway, I'm a firm believer in OLD USED BLOCKS, as long as the thing hasn't had crank problems or kicked out a rod.

Seasoned blocks have taken a set from all the heating and cooling cycles they've been through. Even the big boys are now using a relatively new procedure to "season" their new blocks; involves a very precise and controlled heating and cooling. I believe the company that has the high tech equipment to do it is in Indiana. Try buying a sound, used block from one of the Winston Cup teams; they won't stop laughing til next week, if then. I've been told they even de-stroke an engine just to be able to keep a used block, then over-bore it in order to stay under the CID maximum.

I'd choose a machine shop that does race engines almost exclusively. There a number or reasons: Race shops have to maintain a good rep or racers will go elsewhere; that means the equipment will be of the latest model and regularly calibrated.

What racer will return to a shop after getting his doors continually blown off?

Some shops specialize in dealership warranty work where the tolerances don't have to be as tight for mom and pops sedan.

All the machine work shouldn't run more than about $800, including balancing, turning/polishing the crank, bore and hone with torque plates, hot tank, decking, new cam bearings, dowel pins, freeze plugs and gallery plugs, resize rods and line hone.

Reher and Morrison, Arlington- of Pro Stock fame - will do an outstanding job, but their prices are higher; Dennis Wells' Racing (just off 67) does my stuff unless I've got a one-off engine then I use R&M; he's got a full shop including both engine and chassis dynos.

I hate gapless rings, I choose Speed Pro Plasma Moly (single plasma) with their SS5OU standard tension oil ring set; and accept no substitute.

No, no, don't go pre-balanced assemblies. Take all your rotating and reciprocating stuff to the engine shop and get it done right. Crank, rods, pistons, pins, rings, bearings, damper, flexplate/flywheel; they'll factor in oil weight.

Prices of mass produced engines are kept affordable because the engines don't get a real high degree of attention. If the builder took the time to blue-print each engine they way it should be, the cost would be higher so they wouldn't sell as many. He**, I know of a place that will give you a completely assembled short block for $300 - Guess what quality the work is?

"You get what you pay for" still applies in some areas.

Just my thoughts.

Jake





[Modified by JAKE, 8:47 PM 3/25/2002]

 

One more thing - I told the gentleman at the machine shop that I dealt with that I would be doing the final measuring and assembling. Just a hunch, but my theory is that since he knew that someone would be checking his work he was extra careful. ;) In the end everything was exactly as requested i.e., perfect. Might never use those micrometers and other special tools again, but at least now I know everything is as it should be.

rocky


[Modified by rocky1, 3:19 AM 3/26/2002]

 

David Reher recommendeds Ed at Arlington Automotive Machine for street engine work. That's how I found out about them way back. Reher Morrison has done excellent work for me on my BB's although they would probably be overkill for the original poster's needs.

 

jimduchek,

Expect nothing to be right in as-bought form. I build engines for a living and am regularly shocked to see what does and does not even fit together out of the box. I suggest using a builder such as myself that does endurance engines as well as drag race. The drag race shops besides the true big ones like R & M sometimes don't really know much about making stuff last. You need to go through everything especially the clearances and the oiling system and you should be bulletproof. Even the smaller stuff like pin to rod and pin to piston clearance need to be set because invariably they are wrong from the vendor.

If you want to make any real power you will also need competently ported or chosen heads, cam and intake. These parts will set a basic limit on how much and where the power you will potential have and make as far as rpm etc. Also like Reher and Morrison say always overbuild whatever you need within reason. Too many people get caught up in the business of saving money in the wrong places and pay for it later. They have an article on their web page about the false economy of saving money on the wrong stuff! Get good valvesprings and valvetrain if you're going to turn any rpm and you'll save money in the long run always! :flag

 

I agree with Eric. I've been in many of these engine shops; you would be amazed at the type or people they have working on engines. I'm not saying that they build a bad product; but if you really want to be sure what you've got, build it yourself. It's not difficult.

Remember, if Michaelangelo had never picked up a paint brush he would never have painted the Sistine chapel.

My humble opinion!

:flag

 

Thanks a ton guys. As usual the forum pulls through with tons of useful info :)

Jim