As Merlin 1 comes to a close, I’ve begun plans for Merlin 2. A lot of the timing for all this will depend on how Merlin 1 behaves & whether or not the economy and stock market ever decide to get a clue. I just wanted to share some of what I’m pondering for the next version. I’ve learned so much about building streetable monster cars in the past 3 years that I’m now ready to apply all that learning to what I think will be the most out of control street car ever built. You guys are all going to get to witness it here. The plans outlined below will make Merlin 1 seem downright conservative. The irony is that the second version will not only be WAY stronger than the first, but lighter & more stealth looking in outward appearance. Here’s the plan so far. I’ll update this as we get further along. The purpose of this second car is to end the debate of ricer vs muscle car once & for all. I don’t care WHAT you do to a Skyline, it will never ever be able to produce the kinds of numbers Merlin2 will – whether on a street or a raceway.

Originally I was thinking about going with the AllStar 708, but I have since done more research into the Merlin Lite block. As my forum call name implies, I’m a huge fan of the Merlin blocks. As you can see here: http://worldcastings.com/docs/catalog/pg31.pdf The Merlin Lite can be bored up to 4.6”. If we go with the tall 11.625” deck, which is a raised cam model, we can go as high as a 5.85 stroke. Plugging those numbers in here: http://www.prestage.com/carmath/calc_cid.asp shows a displacement of 777.77. In my mind, this would probably be the largest engine ever put in a street car. It would also only weigh 150 pounds. If any of you have heard of such a thing already done, please send me info! I think it will be a first.

Next, piggybacking off the great work done by Monty, this time around I’m going to go with twin turbo. Originally that’s what I wanted for Merlin 1, but a combination of events led me down the Whipple path. First, a local shop assured me that twin turbos would never fit in a C3. Hah!! Boy did they screw up. I was ready to throw the whole project their way too! After that fiasco, I did more research & determined that the twin screw Whipple design was more efficient down at the lower rpms. While this is very definitely true & Merlin 1 will have some torque figures at the low rpm’s like you’ve never seen in a street car, this is a bad thing!! Traction wins races – all other things help equal. If you can’t hook the tires, you can’t put up the killer numbers. If you look at Monty’s dyno, his car is making as much power as my big block & he’s developing the power way up higher. He’ll be able to get more traction off the line & then bring it on home once hooked up. Hands down, it’s a better setup for a street car.

Presently I’m looking at 2 of the Garret T76’s. Plugging in the engine numbers listed above at: http://www.turbofast.com.au/tfcalc.html combined with rpm of 7,600 ambient Seattle air temp of 50 degrees, Engine VE of 80 boost pressure of 25psi & the listed compressor efficiency of 78 & listed intercooler efficiency of 75, I come up with around 2,500HP being possible out of this engine. Combine this with a Pro Shot Fogger 2 system & I think numbers approaching 3,000HP are theoretically possible out of this thing. I welcome input from some of the forum experts. Are there any flaws in my theory? Can you make any recommendations other than the T76? I’m also in love with the Hogan manifold Monty used. They have a dual TPI version with NO2 integrated http://www.hogansracingmanifolds.com/main.htm This would work perfectly. Even with the 11.625 deck height, there is the very real possibility that this thing could fit under a high rise twin turbo hood. Talk about THE ultimate sleeper!! I still feel even with those totally absurd HP numbers above, if this thing was detuned & run with only 6 psi on the street, it could be streetable. HP could probably be brought down around 1,500 or so which is right around where both Monty & I will be capable with our present systems.

Although I went with the ROD 6 speed in the first version, I will have no choice but to go 4L80E on the second one. Tom’s rear end will be required as well. I’ve discussed with Art Morrison about building a frame designed after the C-5, but having a C-3 body. This way we can take advantage of the better geometry, use rack & pinion, coil overs etc. This frame setup will be stronger & also drop a few extra hundred pounds off the car. All tube chrome moly. Combine that with the lighter engine & we’ll have a car weighing potentially under 3,000 pounds with nearly 3,000HP. To put that in perspective, this would be like one of the new *** bikes cranking out over 450HP. Can you imagine!!

I was considering a C2 body, but I think I’m going to keep it C3. Since this will certainly need to be a full cage design, I was thinking about another 74 but with the 80-82 style body & glass T-tops. I’ve always like the glass tops & I could pretty much hide the full cage. You would be able to see it from the inside, but not from outside. I can’t even imagine what a 777 would sound like. Talk about shaking the earth!!

OK, so that’s my further decent into madness. I welcome all comments – even if just to say “son, you need professional medical help”. I’m especially eager to hear from Monty & others who have done similar projects about the feasibility of such a thing. If we can pull it off, this will be a car that will be talked about for many years to come.

 

Steve,

You're friggin' nuts. Crazy. Certifiable. But I mean that in the best possible way ;). If you've got the motivation and money, anything's possible.

However, I am curious to see how you feel about it after finally driving your present creation. I love building hot rod engines and cars just as much as anyone, and when people tell me something "can't be done", that makes me want to do it even more. But I've got to tell you, I'm willing to bet that when you finally drive your car, it's going to scare the crap out of you.

Maybe you have some experience that I'm not aware of, but most people have no idea how violent it is to drive a 600hp car, not to mention a 1000hp+ car. As is, there will be very few cars(if any) that will ever hope to hang with yours, assuming you can keep it together. I just hope you're safe with it. Consider that the Sledgehammer Calloway TT Corvette's went almost 255mph with a 350ci engine, and a relatively stock chassis. It's difficult to imagine what your car is going to be capable of.

If you're serious about constructing the ultimate TT street monster, I'd love to help, even if it's just a matter of giving any advice/knowledge I've picked up. Just think it through is all I'm saying. You've been involved with your present project almost 3 years now, and you're still not done, and you're already thinking of creating something two times as powerful, and exponentially more radical. I say go for it, but just remember the tough times you've had, and multiply that by an unknown factor.

I know one thing for sure, you're paying for your fabricator and bodyshop's kids' college tuition....

The only thing I see that I would change so far is the stroke, and subsequently the ci's. There's no need to run that much stroke, too much piston speed. Unfortunately, metallurgy hasn't quite caught up with our imaginations yet. Also, turbo setups tend to work better with short stroke, big bore combinations. You already mentioned you feel you ahve too much low end torque, with the stroke and turbo's you've described, you're compounding the problem significantly. Also keep in mind that RPM (and detonation) kills parts, not boost. You can make more manageable power that way, in my opinion. Heck, I'm only making 770ft lbs at 4000 rpm, and I intend to cut that down some for street use.

And I don't think there's any way you can get any IRS to handle that much power. You'd probably need to forget about a 4L80E as well, just go with an Allison...

You're friggin nuts...did I mention that? ;)

 

This should be an interesting thread...

I agree with Monty that you should drive this car first and then decide what you want to do. You won't be able to use HALF the power you have now, so why build something with twice as much? :confused:

I think it would be very interesting to go with a light-weight small-block and aim for extensive use of composites. :cheers: The same engineering/development $ could potentially provide something useful for a much larger market. How about a 500 hp 383 CID weighing 2000 lb? Light = Good.

Regardless of what (if anything) you decide to do, I'll be watching!

 

Frank - We've had some broader discussion over in the C3 section if you want to follow my logic. I posted it over here because some folks in the engine section don't have C3's. The total weight of 777 block would be 150 pounds. I believe that is less than an iron 350. There would be no weight penaltly with this engine. What I'm trying to show with this is how radical you can get if you apply the same type of work Monty had done to a mega engine. Monty's already shown how great a small block can be. I want to take it to the next level...

 

Ahhh, nothing like some automotive insanity to take one's mind off of world affairs.

There have been a number of cars built with larger engines for use on the street in production car at that! Some of the Olympic class cars from the early part of auto history (pre 1920) had engines into the 800 cid range, several interesting stories have been printed in car mags over the years about driving them on modern roads and shocking other motorists especially when charging uphill with no loss in acceleration. There have been numerous Aero engines put into cars over the years - didn't Jay Leno shock the Pebble Beach crowd with one such creation a year or two ago?

For sure if you undertake and complete such a project I expect to see it featured in some magazine when done.

Thomas

 

You have inspired me! The only part of merlin that I can copy is the "flares". Very cool, where did you get them? Are they 2' or 4". I want to run 17"x11" wheels on my 74. Other than that, I'm not even close!

 

Why don't you just strap on a JATO rocket? :jester

I agree with Monty - drive Merlin 1 first. I think traction is already going to be the limiting factor not HP. If Merlin 1 isn't radical enough replace the twin superchargers with twin t76's & intercooler, a hogans intake, and appropriate cam. Your compression is already in the right range and this would be a whole lot cheaper than Merlin 2. You could probably make 2000+hp. If you really have your heart set on Merlin 2 go for it. I always thought I was :crazy: for HP. You've shown me just how sane I am. ;)

 

Keeping in mind that I'm not an engineer and don't even play one on TV...
My biggest concern would be traction. While I think a 3KHP engine would be quite possible the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life, could you really ever get to use more than 1/4 throttle at any speed without braking the tires loose (even with slicks)?
I would think you would get to a point that more HP won't do any good. It would work wonders in a top-speed run, but you don't want to try that in a C3 body.
Here's a challenging thought: All-wheel-drive. Given that any Corvette era (C1-5) is very limited in front suspension space, I wonder if someone would be able to cram an AWD setup under there (and keep it from blowing apart in a high-torque application). That way, you could keep the HP/TQ a little more reasonable (2K :D ) and get the power to the ground on the street or track. Problem is, I don't know of any existing setup that could take the power or fit in a 'vette.

regardless what you do, I'll stay tuned! I just hope I never see you or Monty on the street -- my little car will crawl into a corner and pee if it saw either of your beasts! :)

 

You are proposing a piston speed of 7400 feet per minute at 7600RPM. 4000 feet per minute is generally accepted as an upper bound for anything you want to live very long.

A 5.85" stroke would have to be a very low revver, like 4100-4200RPM redline, to live on the street.

The 3000HP goal can be met with an alcohol funny car engine. Of course, that isn't exactly a street motor. My buddy's aluminum 500-inch engine has no cooling passages in the block. With the evaporative cooling of the methanol, he says it idles fine with no hint of overheating. He does change out the aluminum rods every 35 passes or so, kind of a high maintenance deal.

Hey, maybe you can get an alternative fuel vehicle tax credit! :cheers:

 

I have always wondered why you didn't build a delux kit car of your own? The C3 has so many limitations, why not a clean sheet of paper, sort of. Or a tube frame w/C3 body? For the money you have spent, you should have it your way!

 

The Green Rocket – I would rather think about insane cars than all the horrible crap that goes on out in the world. Take a look at this whole WorldCom thing for example. At least when I **** my money away, I’m honest about & I take responsibility for it! About these Olympic class cars – I’m very interested but can’t seem to find more info. Can you point me in the right direction? This is very exciting since I could do kind of a throwback concept. Obviously those engines weren’t very efficient, but I love cubic inches & it would be cool to read about.

Taijutsu – Bill over at Pacific Corvette scared those up. If you are serious, let me know & I will ask him to get you a pair. I believe these were 3 or 4 inches wide. I think you can pull of 17X11 in the back, but it will be close. We were able to use 14” wide wheels by going 19” tall. Everything fits inside. This wouldn’t work with a 17” rim but with the 11” width you are looking for I think you will be ok. Check with GKull over in the C3 area. I think his are 17” & they are pretty huge.

torquejunky – This was recommended in the off topic area as well. Certainly sounds like my project would qualify for Darwin award status, doesn’t it! I think people are kind of missing my point. What is great about new engines is how versatile they are. Just because an engine can be wound up for a few seconds & run at some ungodly power, doesn’t mean it has to be run like that all the time. I am of the firm belief that I can make such a vehicle streetable & reliable but able to be boosted up & produce absurd numbers. I can wind up the 522, but it just doesn’t have the volume to produce such numbers. It’s all about moving air & to move air, you ultimately need more volume which means more cubic inches.

MarkBychowski – Yes, traction is the biggest concern. Again, on the street we would wind it way down. I think such an engine could be run at minimal boost in the 1,200 to 1,500 range. You guys can correct me if I’m wrong in that assumption. More than any section of the forum, I really look to the Engine Mods section for the technical prowess. I come up with crazy theories & then I like to have open minded people with great knowledge tell me if it can be done & if so, how. This is no crazier than that quad turbo & I would argue would be more realistic for the street. We’re already looking at the AWD unit out of the Murcielago, so you are thinking exactly like me on that issue. It supports a 572 HP engine, so it is possible. I would obviously never be able to crank it up on a track, just like my present car, but with some finesse I think an AWD system would knock huge chunks of time off the quarter & would really help this thing on a road race track. We’re really going to explore that avenue hard. I’m sure I speak for Monty as well when I say that our cars aren’t designed to intimidate other cars, just to kind of push the limits & see what can be done. I know I like to go fast, but probably not as fast as these things can go. I just love listening to huge engines run. It’s like music to my ears. Can you imagine what a 777 in a street car would sound like??!!

L79vette – OK, NOW we are getting somewhere. This is the kind of info that I need. We built the 522 with a smaller stroke so that it could rev higher, but honestly – where on the street could I use such a thing at close to 8,000 rpm? The peak power number I am shooting for in this new system would only be on a dyno & only for a few minutes. What do you think the upper boundary would be for such a thing? Would this engine blow up during a dyno run even at say 6,000 rpm? Having it be a low revver on the street is no problem – especially given the kind of torque this thing will produce. I’d never need to crank it up much. The dyno & any top speed runs would be where my concern lies. I’m curious to hear more. Basically it sounds like from what you & Monty are saying, I may realize higher numbers by backing the stroke down. Is this an accurate statement?

Taijutsu – Actually on the next one, as you will see in the text of my original post, we are going to do something like that. I think I have blasted through many of the limitations on my present project, but you are right – this is 30 year old frame technology. Art Morrison lives about 45 minutes from my house & we’ve asked his shop to help us on the next one.

 

700 cu in big blocks are pretty common in offshore boats, and not very reliable (rebuild only once to make it through a summer). Why not do something like the Torque V-12 (http://www.torque-eng.com/images/1500TOP.jpg). I hear they are working on a 2000 HP motor now.

-Greg

 

OMG!! :eek:

 

Yeah, I also think insane cars are WAY more cool to think about than 99+% of any given newscast!

"Olympic class" is a label given to a whole genre of cars, much like "Muscle cars" to define cars of a similar type/class/era. These would be automotive leviatans such as the early (circa 1916 ?) Oldsmobile Limited and others made in America and Europe that discovered some amount of reliability with masiive, but slow revving engines, often only 4 cylinders. Although I have a massive automobile book and magazine collection, it is not sorted well enough for me to give you much direction for research on the early monster displacement auto engines - I'm just going off memory. What I might suggest is that you contact a docent or curator to an early era auto museum, I'm sure they can provide you with more info. Also, search the http://www.webring.com site for links to early antique auto info - it'll take some digging, but I can assure you that you will find some facsinating stories.

Best of luck with Merlin I, II (and dare I suggest III).

Thomas

 

How about a quad turbo Falconer V12? :D Love these motors :yesnod: ... wish I could afford one.

[Homer]Mmmm... shiney[/Homer]:D


http://www.falconerengines.com/

 

Regarding the stroke versus RPM issue for short-time testing, I don't know. All I know is the rule of thumb for long life.

The real Chevy engine builders who answer questions on the internet are at http://www.chevytalk.com . Go to the "performance related" forum. There are folks there who have tried many different bore and stroke combinations.

 

Merlin,

If you could get it to fit between the fender wells you could give this engine a try: http://www.schubeckracing.com/ : ).

You could also contact http://www.cnblocks.com/. They could probably carve a V-12 or a V10 out of a solid block aluminum. As someone already mentioned this would allow you to use a smaller stroke and still have monster cubes. Their V-8 offerings get fairly monstrous also. You would have something unique in that your block wouldn't be cast it would be carved from one big chunk of aluminum. They do offer blocks with water jackets drilled that they claim can be run on the street. This would have the advantage of being much stronger than the Merlin lite block.

There was also a company making custom engines at one time called Batten Engineering. I can't seem to locate them on the web any more. I seem to recall that they were working on a BBC based V12.

You could also try to track down one of the old Allison Aircraft V16 Engines. Of course you would have to stretch the nose on your Vette just a little bit. : ).

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

Wow, can you stir up some controversy!!! To me, the only way to get someone off of your back is to make what you say and what you do match. It really is that simple. If anyone doubts you, prove them wrong - don't just tell them that they are wrong.
Like you said, there is nothing wrong with dreaming and throwing ideas out there for feedback. But my gosh do you stir up the pot! It seems as though people don't know whether or not to believe you because it is apparant that you can afford to at least purchase the parts.

Here is the bottom line. Get you current project finished. Boy, is that an obvious statement. Your vision is incredible and I know from talking to you that you are a very smart guy. The bad part is that you have to rely on other people to "enable" your vision. I personally hate relying on anyone for anything. Sometimes we have to, but I still don't like it. It seems that when you have to rely on someone the only thing that can be counted on is disappointment. That is why I do almost everything myself.

My guess is that you have learned an incredible amount since you started this project. The really exciting thing for you will be when the car is finally done and you are driving it - another obvious statement.

But really, how close is this thing to being finished? Whatever happened to your engine builder breaking the motor in while the car was on a chassis dyno? From what I can see on your website, it didn't happen.

Well it just so happens that since we last talked I purchased a DynoJet 248 Chassis Dyno. It will read up to 1200 rear wheel horsepower, which amounts to approximately 1400 flywheel horsepower. You got the desire to see if that thing has as much power as you have been told it does?

So far I have the record at 691 rear wheel horsepower, but my cars are the only ones that have been on it so I should have the record. Ha! Ha!

Let me know what you want to do.

 

Might want to look at some bigger turbos merlin. Tweaked 2 is running i believe 88 mm turbos and reiger i think was running 91 mm turbos they are in the hp/tq ranges that you are wanting from what i can see. Might want to give Sean at ESR a call if you need a header fabricator for the system.

Very wicked idea that is for sure.

Hogan will make anything you want too :D I love mine love my twin throttle bodies :) (although a single i have heard can make a few hp more :S)

Steven

 

Did you ever see the C4 Ryan Falconer built for his V12 engine? He actually lengthened the car in front of the windshied for the engine. Did such a good job that it was hard to tell it wasn't stock until the hood ws opened.

Until a few months ago I used to read National Dradster, saw an advertisement in there for a company building alum blocks for 800+ ci, seems like a good starting point for the project.

As for turbos, use big ones that don't start flowing until 3 or 4K RPM, that might give you a chance at getting some traction, even without boost you will have all the low end torque to fry the hides on even the best drag slicks.

What are you going to do with Merlin 522? Maybe sell it? To a forum member?


[Modified by dsagers, 9:57 AM 7/11/2002]