I posted this in the C3 section. I think the question also fits in this section.

I have a car that has many correct numbers. I also have the original warranty
with the "Protect-O-Plate" and have been able to contact the original owner and
verify the car's options from new. One of the few numbers that does not match
up with the "Protect-O-Plate" is the engine pad date. The "plate" reads
"T0809IT," the engine reads "T1024IT." The engine pad VIN matches up with the
VIN number of the car.

When I spoke to the original owner he informed me that he blew the original
engine at 3,000 miles and had it replaced at the same Chevy dealer he purchased
the car. I am assuming this engine dated 10/24 of the same year is the one he
replaced it with. Is this considered a "replacement block" or is that term only
given to blocks that were replaced for some reason before being sold to the
original owner?

What would NCRS think of this situation? Would they consider this a matching
numbers car?

 

BAD-L88,

When an engine was replaced by a dealer under warranty, the engine would be ordered through the GM parts system. The engine stamp pad on these engines would normally be stamped "CE+6? digits". This may not be true for L88s, but I doubt the fact that it was an L88 would make any difference to that process because of the internal accounting and warranty considerations.

Since L88s are such rare birds, perhaps it is possible that they were handled differently, i.e. built to order. However, I would think they would still get the "CE" number.

From the NCRS perspective, the engine build stamp is likely to cause you problems first because it is showing a build date after the car was built; it is clearly NOT the original engine, so there will be a significant point deduct. Warranty replacements do not count for original to my knowledge.

The presence or lack of a second stamping on the engine pad is also likely to cause you problems; If it has the "CE" stamp, that will lend crediblility to the replacement story, but it still won't change the fact that it is a replacement engine. I have seen a CE warranty replacement engine before, and I can't remember if that engine had the build date stamp or not. This engine was in an original owner L71 two top convertible with the very rare dual disc clutch.

If I had bought the car from the original owner, I would have requested that he provide me with a notarized statement regarding the circumstances, dates, and details of the replaced engine. Any original dealer paperwork documenting the warranty replacement would be invaluable. It could help you on the judging field, and would certainly make the car more valuable to certain buyers.

 

"CE"-stamped replacement engines didn't start until 1969 (when GM started the 5/50 Powertrain Warranty, and the warranty engine business started going out of sight). The pad stamp on a "CE" engine only indicates the calendar year it was assembled (the first digit after "CE"); the other numbers following that are internal engine plant codes that relate to how many "CE" engines that engine plant has made during that year. There is no way to determine the internals of a "CE" engine from the stamp pad - they were supplied as short blocks, and dealers ordered them by part number to match the type of failed engine, and that part number doesn't show up anywhere on the engine.

 

Thanks, John, for the info on when the "CE" engines started. The "CE" engine I saw was in a 69 Corvette.

Prior to that, were REPLACEMENT engines stamped with the build date in the usual location, and the VIN area left blank (as usual)?


[Modified by Chuck Sangerhausen, 11:29 AM 8/13/2001]

 

Chuck Sangerhausen,

The build date does line up (maybe just by luck when he had the motor replaced).

The casting date is J98 (October 9th, 1968)
The pad date on the engine is T1024IT (October 24th, 1968)
The build date is D11 (November 11th)

I think I can get an affadavit from the original owner stating the facts and history. The dealer is out of business but the original owner still lives in the same town.

 

Just to back up what Chuck was saying, there would be a complete deduct for your stamping pad as it clearly indicates that this is not the engine that came with the car from St. Louis. If your block casting number is correct and the date is, as you stated, prior to the build of the car, then there should NOT be a deduct for those items.

Also for interests sake, NCRS does not recognize the term 'matching numbers' for judging puposes.

 

Sorry, BAD-L88, I got the POP build date for the original engine confused with the build date of the vehicle, which you did not say.

Since it IS a replacement engine, and it's build date DOES precede the car's build date by no more than the six months, the engine now falls in the category of "correct" non-original motor. From your posts, I assume that it doesn't have another VIN stamped on the engine pad, but that wouldn't change it's classification as "correct".

I would not let the non-original engine keep me from having the car NCRS judged. Like Mike says, it would be a significant, but not a TOTAL deduct. The fact that the car has a replacement engine WOULD NOT keep the car from top flight, but the rest of the car, including the paint, would need to be in good, very original condition.


[Modified by Chuck Sangerhausen, 11:15 AM 8/13/2001]