NCRS Judging
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From: NM
NCRS Judging
What would happen if someone showed up at an NCRS event with a perfect ZL1 that was not one of the two know to exist and did not have any paperwork/documentation? Would they judge it as a ZL1?
My thinking is that they would have to judge it as a ZL1 and since it was perfect give it a Topflight. If they did not judge it as a ZL1 they would be getting into the area of certifying that a car is legitimate vehicle and I don't think that is where they want to go.
Or am I totally off base here?
tom...
My thinking is that they would have to judge it as a ZL1 and since it was perfect give it a Topflight. If they did not judge it as a ZL1 they would be getting into the area of certifying that a car is legitimate vehicle and I don't think that is where they want to go.
Or am I totally off base here?
tom...
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From: NM
Re: NCRS Judging (sting66ray)
How exact a car is it? Does that mean a restamp, or forged engine pad?
What I think I am getting at here is will the NCRS judge a know, but unprovable, forgery by the same standards. Say 25 1967 L88s show up at one meet. Only 20 were built. Would they be judged as an L88 or disqualified. If the NCRS disqualifies them, they they are certifying that some are original and others are not original.
tom...
[Modified by Tom73, 12:21 PM 8/15/2001]
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Re: NCRS Judging (Tom73)
I suppose the politically correct thing to do would be to toss this one over to the NCRS cats and see what they have to say, but in my opinion, the car should not be judged as a ZL1. The two genuine ZL1s are known to almost everybody who fools with Corvettes, including (and especially) the NCRS. If I were an NCRS judge and this car was presented to me as a ZL1 without documentation, knowing the two genuine cars exist, I would consider the car as bogus and begin deducting points accordingly.
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Re: NCRS Judging (Tom73)
Tom,
No paperwork or documentation is required at an NCRS event other than ownership papers and proof of insurance. Judges are instructed not to use any prior knowledge of a vehicle to assist with the present job of judging it today. This includes knowing that "X" number of vehicles were built and this one ain't one of them.
If the car has every nuance of being what it appears to be, then it should indeed get a Top Flight.
This goes with the fact that NCRS judging does not guarantee ANYTHING about a car, other than at the time of judging the car appeared to be representative of typical factory production.
Many people have a real hard time digesting this concept, possibly because they bought a car on the strength of a judging certificate and now wonder if their car is legit.
I don't worry because NOTHING on my car is orginal, including the nut that holds the steering wheel on. Or is it the nut that holds onto the steering wheel? :crazy:
No paperwork or documentation is required at an NCRS event other than ownership papers and proof of insurance. Judges are instructed not to use any prior knowledge of a vehicle to assist with the present job of judging it today. This includes knowing that "X" number of vehicles were built and this one ain't one of them.
If the car has every nuance of being what it appears to be, then it should indeed get a Top Flight.
This goes with the fact that NCRS judging does not guarantee ANYTHING about a car, other than at the time of judging the car appeared to be representative of typical factory production.
Many people have a real hard time digesting this concept, possibly because they bought a car on the strength of a judging certificate and now wonder if their car is legit.
I don't worry because NOTHING on my car is orginal, including the nut that holds the steering wheel on. Or is it the nut that holds onto the steering wheel? :crazy:
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Re: NCRS Judging (Tom73)
Maybe, maybe not. A ZL-1 would differ substantially from the "norm" for other cars judged by your "typical" NCRS judge. Quoting from the judging manual, "... there surely are some that differ from standard specifications. Whether these differences are due to inattentive assembly or special instructions is of little consequence in the judging of the car. It remains the responsibility of the owner to document these deviations from the norm. The intent of this manual is to record the norm to the best of our ability."
So, maybe and maybe not. I recently sold a first day production '70 roadster that had several differences from the norm and I was counted off during early judgings. It took several years for NCRS to document these differences on other early production '70s (and come out with a revised judging manual), until these differences became accepted. Eventually, with the acquired information, the car became top flight at 95+ points, with no changes other than documentation of similar cases.
So, maybe and maybe not. I recently sold a first day production '70 roadster that had several differences from the norm and I was counted off during early judgings. It took several years for NCRS to document these differences on other early production '70s (and come out with a revised judging manual), until these differences became accepted. Eventually, with the acquired information, the car became top flight at 95+ points, with no changes other than documentation of similar cases.
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Re: NCRS Judging (Tom73)
Tom73,
To the best of my knowledge the car would be judged and deducted as observed, regardless of known rarity. It is difficult to tell how each individual NCRS judge would react, especially with the clear direction and state-of-affairs they have currently taken. You have obviously picked-up on one of the hypocrisies any one of them would be confronted with...which is one of the reasons I have always maintained that "Judging is Silly". TBarr
To the best of my knowledge the car would be judged and deducted as observed, regardless of known rarity. It is difficult to tell how each individual NCRS judge would react, especially with the clear direction and state-of-affairs they have currently taken. You have obviously picked-up on one of the hypocrisies any one of them would be confronted with...which is one of the reasons I have always maintained that "Judging is Silly". TBarr
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Re: NCRS Judging (T Barr)
Maybe my view will change after I spend more time around the judging process, but I simply see NCRS as a corvette hobby, which is called: "lets make it look factory original" Some people have a hobby called: "let's make it go as fast as we can" others have a vette hobby called "lets make it look as radical as possible" and still others have a vette hobby called, "lets make this car as clean as possible". There are different competitions for all of these vette hobbies if the hobbiests are so inclined. I am very comfortable with NCRS as long as the concept is, "This car looks just like they did when they came from the factory", and I only get uncomfortable when it becomes: "This car is in fact as it came from the factory" - certainly a much more difficult claim to make. I have seen the definition of "counterfeit" on the NCRS website, but sometimes the distinction can get very blurry. It's a heck of a lot easier to just accept a clone or counterfeit for what it is - a skillful finely crafted reproduction of the original.... which is what most of a restored car is anyway. MJ
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From: Costa Mesa CA
Re: NCRS Judging (Mike Ward)
Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember that the person submitting the car for NCRS judging must certify deviations that they are aware of, that have been made to the car. i.e. the car was originally black and I painted it white, it was carb car and I put FI on it.
I think this puts it back where the responsibility should be. The judge can only judge it as presented, if he finds obvious bogus items then deductions as appropriate are awaded.
My .02
I think this puts it back where the responsibility should be. The judge can only judge it as presented, if he finds obvious bogus items then deductions as appropriate are awaded.
My .02