You was talking the other day about Black Phosphate coatings being a chemically appied coating not electrically. Could you elaborate please if you know any more on the subject. Have you ever done it and or what were the results ?? Products used etc

Please and thank you :)

 

Do I know anything more on the subject??? Ronster, Ronster, Are you kidding? :jester

Yes, phospating is a chemical reaction. I have done it with good results and wrote an article for the Corvette Restorer about the subject back a few years ago. There are two different phosphating chemicals: one is manganese phosphate and I believe the other is zinc phosphate.

I bought the chemical from an old guy that advertised in Hemmings, but I think he retired or passed on. I haven't investigated other sources since that time. Like Patrick said, Eastwoods or Caswells may have it. What you have to be careful of is that some vendors describe a product as black phosphate...well, its black, but it ain't phosphate, and a knowledgeable judge knows the difference.

The dilute solution is maintained at 180 deg F (glass or stainless steel utensils required), and the bead-blasted, phosphoric acid cleaned parts are dipped in the solution and left for about 12-15 minutes. If you have ever cleaned parts in dilute muriatic acid solution, the phosphating chemical reaction is identical in appearance...there will be a blanket of fine bubbles that surrounds the part. The reaction gradually slows until it is done. You take out the parts and they are black with the required sparkles. :D :D

 

Chuck,

Are you saying that if I dip bolts etc in muriatic acid I will get the same results???? Sorry buddy..really tired and need it simple :D



[Modified by Ron D, 2:45 AM 3/16/2002]

 

Ron, what Chuck is saying is that the parts are CLEANED in acid to remove any impurities. "phosphoric acid cleaned parts" Any time you do any sort of plating or coating of metal parts they must be cleaned within an inch of their lives. This will ensure that the product adheres to the part better.
BTW, once you see an original phosphate part, you will know the difference. I seem to recall that the phosphate has a sparkly finish.

Gary

 

Sorry for not getting back last night(?), Ronster, I signed off after a couple of quick posts. It was getting too late for me.

Gary caught the drift of my vagueness...Yes, I meant cleaned in a phosphoric acid bath just prior to the dip in the phosphate solution. In the article, I described an assembly line method where the parts begin the process with a phosphoric acid dip of about half the residence time of the phosphate solution (6-7 minutes). I used phosphoric acid because the process is phosphoric acid based, and it is better not to introduce other chemicals by using muriatic (hydrochoric) acid. Acid cleaning can not really be done in advance because the acid cleaned parts rust too quickly.

Be advised that the phosphoric acid dip is not really intended to take rusted, original finish parts to the ultra-clean condition necessary for the phosphate dip, but is intended only as a final finish cleaning before the dip...more like a conditioning. You could probably skip it, but I never tried that.

Before beginning the process, I had bead-blasted the parts to white metal. Small stuff, like #6 screws 1/4 inch in length, is a real pain You have to be careful in handling the bead-blasted parts to avoid natural oils from your hands, and blow off any dust that is left on the parts. if you leave a fingerprint on a part before the phosphate dip, you'll end up with a bald spot on the phosphated part. The phosphoric acid dip is really not effective at removing oils, so prevention using latex gloves is the best tactic (no rude jokes here, you fink Canajuns :D ). My opinion is that any residual dust causes real headaches with the process.


[Modified by Chuck Sangerhausen, 10:13 AM 3/16/2002]

 

What's this about latex gloves, Chuck? Just what kinda shop are you runnin' down there in cattle country? Are the cows smiling?
:D

 

Nawww, the cows aren't smiling...I don't buy those arm-length cuffs, just the regular shorties. They are great for painting since it avoids having to scrub your hands with solvents afterwards. I don't have as many natural oils as I once did, so I have to take measures to protect what skin I have left. :D :D

Hee, Hee. Once when my wife was making a run to Wal-Mart, she asked me if I needed anything from there. I told her was about out of aerosol shaving cream, and...oh yeah, pick me up a 100 count box of latex gloves from the pharmacy area.

Well, when she got back, she said "That's it...From now on, if you need that particular combination, you are going to have to go yourself. I am not going to accept those funny looks anymore!" It must have been like being a teenage boy and being asked by your mother to make an emergency run for feminine hygiene products. I never considered twisted minds would draw the wrong conclusion, but I did enjoy a good chuckle at my wife's discomfort. :D :D :D

 

Thanks, Chuck! I was laughing out loud at yer post and my 10 year old son came up and asked what was so funny. Now how am I gonna explain this one? "Uhh, go ask yer mother" doesn't seem to work in this house.

 

No problem, I had one smacker of a head ache and engrish was not sinking in at all. I went to my local paint supplier today and picked up some goodies. I wonderd past the spray bombs and scanned the shelf. My eye caught a glimmmer of Copper fine Metallic so I grabbed it. I then went behind the counter and asked my buddy to mix me up some semi gloss black paint in a pint can. I got him to mix in about 50% Gunwash into the mix and got him to shaker up. I got back to the shop and tossed the bolts I was doing in Muriatic acid for about ten minuted to really clean them well. Washed them really well in water. Sprayed them with a very light coat of the copper spray paint and let it dry. Then I dipped them in the mixed black paint...let stand to till dry and then dipped them again to darken them up some more. I then warmed them up with my heat gun a bit and then applied a light coat of SEM 'Flat' clear coat over them. Held it up to a real one and its damn close. Unless you held right up to your nose, I dont think you could tell the differance. I even got the sparklies :)

Not bad for a $9 investment that will last a year :yesnod:


[Modified by Ron D, 3:33 PM 3/16/2002]

 

You're still over-indulging in that Mexican horse pee beer I see. Why is it, that in the land of Molson, you drink that watered down stuff made in Los Angeles for gringos? Drinking that stuff is not going to get you back to that Mexican resort any quicker. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hey, Ronster, sounds like you are on to something there with that copper paint and semi-gloss black wash. I expect that will pass on the judging field because the areas that have black phosphate (chassis primarily) are in shade, making it nearly impossible to check for the sparklies. I have never seen a judge make the distinction in judging of black phosphate vs. black something.

What is "gun wash" anyway? Is it more effective than lacquer thinner or is it cheaper for a gallon?

 

That's what's left over when Mac is finished cleaning the ol' pistole. :D

 

Chuck, you do know that "petroleum basd" products weaken "latex based" products don't you? I mean I thik they still teach us in high school. Seriously though, I go with the vinyl. Holds up to petro based solvents much better.

 

So, how 'bout it Macster? Do you use Hoppes No. 9 or some imitation there of?

Shoot, I don't know...up there in the white north, you guys may use 'kare-sene' (formerly called coal oil by the ole timers). Yawl probably have plenty of thet fer gittin' thet ole wood stove goin' on those cold artic mornin's.

 

Yessir, Noskillz, I knew that, but I didn't learn it in General Science. :D

Once lacquer thinner hits those latex gloves, the life expectancy is under a minute, then you have all these bulgy little latex circles on the garage floor. That's the finger tips that have fallen off. :D I use the latex gloves to keep the paint overspray off my hands; they don't see solvents until I am cleaning up the gun, and then they are soon history. :D :D :D

I have also discovered vinyl, I use those when I have more exposure to hydrocarbons, but the fact is I haven't found anything that will stand up to lacquer thinner very long. But, I find the latex is better for some applications that require tactile feedback (Awwwnawwww, stand by for the Bull Moose BS Storm). :jester :hat :jester

 

Gun wash is spoiled Paint thinner or just a cheap verison of it. Mainly used for cleaning and not thinning anymore. I wasn't going to spent bug bucks to find out it didn't work. I was using it on the 67 for the hood latch bolts and the spings. The bolts it worked great on, the spings will need a bit more practice.


[Modified by Ron D, 7:53 PM 3/16/2002]

 

Is it cheaper than $8 a gallon? Is it sold in known brands, or is a brand we never heard of like "Polar Bear". :D When you say "spoiled", does that mean it has already been used to clean guns, or has it lost some of the volatiles that help set the thinner's temperature range. Is it colorless or is there some contaminants in it.

Sometimes, I see professional paint repairs of lighter colors that appear to have a darker tinge to them than the original finish. In those cases, I suspect their spray equipment was still contaminated with the previous darker color because the gun was not cleaned properly.

I may consider that stuff if it'll save a few bucks, but it will have to be enough to justify keeping another can of flammables around the garage. I won't compromise on quality either; it'll have to get my gun clean. :D :D

BTW, on the springs: Springs are never an easy proposition because you have to get paint down inside the coil, as well as all around the wire. I found it helps if I get a piece of wood and nail two nails far enough apart to stretch the spring out a little...not a lot, just enough to separate the coils to allow paint to get inside and around the wire coils. I found that if you paint the spring in the relaxed position, the paint builds up between the coils, and bridges across making the spring appear very "painted".

 

Yes there is some contaminants in it. Meaning water or other paint or .... god knows what but it cant be sold as pure. Point blank it wasnt sold to me at all. All I had to pay for was the spray bomb :) Thanks for the tip on the spring, the thought crossed my mind as I was reaing your post.

Now Re Mex Beer :D I haven't had any in weeks and my body is falling apart. I have had that nasty flu bug that has been going around here and havent had the need or want to pollute myself any further. Maybe next weekend :cheers:





[Modified by Ron D, 7:55 PM 3/16/2002]

 

I use a product called 'Breakfree' which has a lighter oil than Hoppe's No. 9- less residue.

Most of the time, when I refer to gunwash, I'm talking about the used laquer thinner left over after I've cleaned the spraygun. Since it's used and contaminated, I won't reuse it in the gun but I can still use it as for other things, like degreasing.