Sad situation with NCRC and Thunderhill. I've driven with NCRC for years, and have found their track days, time trials, and races to always be well run and safe.

Thunderhill has cancelled all NCRC's dates for this year ... reason unknown ... but I find it very interesting that Hooked On Driving charges more than twice what NCRC does for a full day ... and Hooked On Driving has taken over most of the cancelled NCRC dates ... and one of Hooked On Driving's owners is also on the board of directors for Thunderhill.

What a coincidence ...

 

I really like going to NCRC track days, but NCRC is definitely the club that's out there to offer the absolute lowest prices on track events, which can get on the nerves of some other organizations that feel like they're undercutting the market.

Dave Mills sent an email out recently about a lawsuit they'll be filing with more details to come.

HOD is a great organization, but I personally find their prices a bit steep. Included in that price however are a lot of coaches and usually a lunch.

For lower priced days at Thunderhill, I'd check out Trackmasters. They now have a two tier pricing option that allows you to have a ton of track time for very reasonable rates. They have several THill days that are 3 run groups only and up to 7 sessions for $200.

 

It's sad to say the least, I always had a good time with HOD but NCRC is more "bang for the buck". I really hope that it's no connection between HOD leader and Thunderhill with persons having dual interest, would give me more then bad taste in the mouth for sure !

/Hakan

 

I've been running with NCRC for a couple of years now. Why pay more? I got the same email as Z. I hope they're are able to resolve things. In the mean time I think I'll skip any HOD dates until I hear the whole story.

 

It's a bummer for me also. I have always a good safe time at a reasonable price. Me thinks politics is in play.

 

Hi Guys:

Until the lawsuit is filed I can't give you too much details but I can at least give you the following info:

We know that quite a few of our competitors have been complaining about our pricing and we believe that TH is not too please about it either.

The dates we were offered by TH for 2010 were much, much worse than what we used to have in the past and we contacted TH to find out what the issues was and to propose them a $50K cash upfront/donation against a multi-years contract.

A couple of weeks after our proposal was rejected and we got a "nice" email from the GM of TH requesting among other things (such as buying advertising/signage from them) that we raise our entry fees ( and I quote the email) " to a level that is friendlier to and more inline with our customer base" if we wanted to change the " status of our current relationship".

We believe that the lack of good dates for 2010 was due to our pricing and we also believe that TH run afoul of the Cartwright Act ( anti-trust laws) by requesting that we raise our entry fees.

Therefore we have retained legal counsel and will be filing a lawsuit for price-fixing, tying, unfair competition and a few other causes of actions.

Luc

 

Sorry to hear this Luc. I always enjoy your ncrc events and I hope you get everything "settled" quickly .

 

Good luck Luc & Dave. I hope the two of you don't get too mired down in the cesspool of litagation and get a quick settlement with TH and get on with the show. Regardless of the pricing, your events are as good as they get.

 

Exactly what I was afraid of Luc ... I'm very sorry to hear this. I'll support you and Dave anyway I can, and I know an awful lot of your members feel the same way.

 

Get ready for that bad taste...

Go to the Hooked on Driving web site and click on "Info", then go to "The HOD Team" page. It says "One of his [David Ray's] proudest achievements is his role as Chair of the new track committee of the San Francisco Region of the SCCA in support of President Tom McCarthy, and now CEO David Vodden, in the development, fund raising and construction of Thunderhill Raceway. Ray currently serves on the Thunderhill Board of Directors."

Since my first track day with them, I've always had a bad feeling about HOD and their motives.

It quickly became obvious to me that Profit was the primary motivator at HOD, and that customer satisfaction was secondary. Since then, I have seen nothing that changed my opinion, and several things that have enforced it. I've heard complaints from several people on his staff that some organizers' fees were too low. So this latest development is not entirely unpredictable, but I'm still surprised that David Ray (the owner of HOD and a Thunderhill board member) would stoop this low to eliminate the competition.

I think a boycott of HOD is in order. What do you think?

 

That sounds a little extreme/premature to me personally at this point. I think David Ray seems like a good guy and I'll give him and HOD the benefit of the doubt until the details become clear (there's always 2 sides to the story). Could be coincidence and someone else at T-hill has a problem with ncrc. I agree that HOD has a different focus toward track days with a higher cost, but they make it pretty clear that is their intent. More focus on safety and instruction (7/10ths driving), less on "racing". That seems to attract a group of more expensive cars that are willing to pay more for a less stressful DE and more novices looking for a safe intro to the hobby. Hopefully NCRC will get this worked out, because they balance out HOD nicely with less expensive track days with more freedom to pass along with a racing group and time trials. But if you're right Bob, then HOD is going to have some problems for sure.

 

I have run and instructed with NCRC/ARC since 2002. To a lesser extent I have run and coached with HOD for about 4 years. I like the HOD guys (especially Dev), but it has never been a substitute for NCRC. The NCRC/ARC mix of open track, time-trial and gentleman's club racing is (was?) simply the best thing going on at Thunderhill. And I'm saying that with full knowledge (and personal participation) in all the other Thunderhill users: HOD, SCCA, NASA, LeMons, TMR, Shelby, etc. It's not about price for me; but I think NCRC was contributing to the long-term track economy more than any other club, because it was attracting new people to the sport with its pricing. All the other clubs would eventually benefit from the increased customer base.

If the track doesn't want to allow $99 track days (which I say is none of their business really), then they can set their track rental higher and maybe specify how many track workers MUST be used and even specify a maximum number of cars on the track at any session. But then they have got to apply that to all clubs. And I'm not meaning to imply that NCRC didn't use enough track workers or that they packed the track with too many cars. NCRC was fine on both those issues in my opinion.

The real sad part on this NCRC deal is even if they "win" in a lawsuit, they will never have a good relationship with the track again. Of course, I guess there is a chance that Thunderhill will realize early that they are out of line and cave. They could give back open days to NCRC/ARC and put no price restrictions on them....and we could be back in business this year. But I see that as very unlikely.

Regarding a boycott: My whole reason for going to Thunderhill at all was to do the TT series with NCRC and the race series with ARC. Yes, I occassionally went over with other clubs to keep "tuned in", but they will not substitute for NCRC. I generally spent about 20 days a year at Thunderhill. For me, I have no motivation to go to Thunderhill at all this year....unless NCRC comes back; Or if another club reinvents itself to offer the beautiful blend of activities that I enjoyed with NCRC/ARC.

 

Sorry to heat about this. I've really enjoyed NCRC events. I've never run with HOD because of their ridiculous prices. Many clubs have lowered prices, Track Masters has the tiered program as mentioned.
NCRC offered the best days with Hpde/tt/racing.
I'm not an attorney, but I think Thill will lose this one.
Good luck Dave and Luc. We'll continue supporting you guys.


John Lawrence

 

In regards to NCRC helping the sport I totally agree to Bill's & 89onroids statement that NCRC's pricing helps bringing in more people to these types of events. And that should be beneficial for any type of organization that are associated with these types of events and activities.

Luc's message gives a clear picture that things are wrong, I would be really interested to hear the facts from the other side of the "fence" but guess that won't happen until all is "sorted out".

Good luck now Dave and Luc, hope this gets sorted out asap so You can move on with NCRC and continue bringing great value to us "Car interested people" in CA

Regards
/Hakan

 

It seems incredibly stupid to turn away business in this economy. The owners of Thunderhill must be clueless. I doubt Infineon, Laguna or Buttonwillow are trying this.
If you can't compete on price, you need to look at your own business, not trying to screw somebody else.

 

Hi Paul,

Sorry to say there is in fact another track that has set minimum pricing for us to drive at their facility. Since there is a chance we’ll find an out of court settlement, we’ll not name them at this time.

We couldn’t agree more with your comment about if you can’t compete on price, you need to look at your own business rather than trying to screw somebody else, but it does appear it may be easier trying to screw ncrc than improving their business.

As you well know there are two sides to a story, and we strongly suggest waiting until the lawsuit is filed and the documents are on our web site (including Thunderhill’s side/response) in order to have all the elements in hand to make your decision. As for David Ray, frankly he’s always seemed to have been an up-front guy to us, but the details of his involvement, if any, in this situation will be part of the discovery process during the lawsuit.

What the court will have to decide is not what other clubs have been doing, but simply whether the track engaged in price fixing or not.

Dave

 

That is too bad. I liked running with NCRC more then any other group. They cater to faster cars and offer great bang for the buck. IMO the caliber of drivers is also better at NCRC events. You do not see 18 year old kids in Evo's thinking they will be damned if a Corvette will pass them. I stopped running with NASA because of stupid drivers and some close calls with idiots on track. HOD is OK, but their prices are insane and you get nothing more with them then with any other group. Their Corvette only days are prices way too high and offer nothing special over a regular track day.

I hope that NCRC prevails with their suit and gets a contract back with Thunderhill. It sucks that the other groups can't compete with NCRC's pricing so they needed to resort to something like this. Good luck to all parties involved with NCRC and I hope it all works out.

RICH

 

Just hard to imagine that this is happening in a free country. Like Paul says, if someone else is doing what you're doing at a cheaper price its time to reevaluate your business. Look at restuarants like Applebees and Chili's. In my business I figure 20-25% cut minimum, my supplier has helped w/ this so life goes on. Good luck to Luc and Dave, will see them Thurs. at LS and hopefully get some good news.

 

Sad to say after having done a 6+ year arbitration with my company years ago, the only
ones that usually make out on these is the legal counsel on both sides. HOD caters to
folks that really don't get that serious, although some of them think otherwise, while
NCRC and SV cater to folks that spend more than an average amount of time of track.
I hope it works out well for the drivers that need as many options as the market can offer.
Randy

 

While Johns68 has a point that it looks suspicious, I think we should not be condemning HOD yet. Dave and Redtopz suggested wait and see, and I agree. I would prefer to find out that HOD had nothing to do with this. I really hope it is just an issue between the Track and NCRC. HOD has its niche, and the point of my previous letter was partly to say there is really very little overlap between the focus of NCRC versus the focus of HOD. I hope they both prosper and that NCRC is back in business ASAP. When all the facts are out, if we find out HOD was indeed behind this, they will lose my respect then.