How did you combat starter heat soak from headers?
07-07-2018, 10:13 AM
#1
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
How did you combat starter heat soak from headers?
I figured I would post this in here since it isn't a corvette... I maintain a 67 Firebird 400 (455? That's a story for another day) and have been fighting heat soak for the better half of 6 months now. We originally had a non gear reduction high output on there and that worked marginally when cold... when warm it would barely turn over at all. So I installed one of the summit protorque starters and that made cranking much happier. That being said after driving for about 5 minutes if you stall or shut the car off the starter just clicks when you attempt to restart. Summit sent me another new starter a few weeks ago and this one lasted one drive.
Now on top of this I also tried wrapping various things but basically the problem is that the damn starter is practically on top of the header. Now this is about the hottest running vehicle myself, or anyone else, has ever experienced. So my question is, how would you fix this? I am currently trying to remote mount the solenoid but can't wrap my head around how this will actually work but we'll see. Any input is greatly appreciated and if this is in the wrong location please feel free to move it.
Thank you in advance,
-Paul
Now on top of this I also tried wrapping various things but basically the problem is that the damn starter is practically on top of the header. Now this is about the hottest running vehicle myself, or anyone else, has ever experienced. So my question is, how would you fix this? I am currently trying to remote mount the solenoid but can't wrap my head around how this will actually work but we'll see. Any input is greatly appreciated and if this is in the wrong location please feel free to move it.
Thank you in advance,
-Paul
07-07-2018, 03:56 PM
#2
Le Mans Master
Heavy Duty Starter, Bus battery cables 0 gauge and highest cca battery I could get. 650 motivator. Been a while. You have to be careful with cable to starter if it shorts to ground there will be a fire.
07-07-2018, 07:21 PM
#3
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Wish I didn't throw out that 4/0 I had laying around for years... right now I have 2 on a 800 CCA to a remote solenoid giving a full 12 to the starter. As of today it works well. Time will tell.
07-07-2018, 07:56 PM
#4
Le Mans Master
I had a GTO. That was stop for a while special after building engine and installing Hookers. The stock engine never had cranking troubles. How much compression are you running?
07-07-2018, 09:46 PM
#5
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Dude, my uncle got the engine from his cousin as collateral because he owed him money or something like that 20 years ago. No one knows the specs but he built it to go in a bracket car of his own so it was no expense spared. If I had to guess at the least 10:1. It doesnt have that burble that a low comp engine has it has that loud crack you know? At 30 degrees advance it runs okay on 93 but it's all in at 3k. Very lazy curve otherwise I believe it pinged. It was never intended to be a street driven car but things change for reasons I don't want to get into because it is just too soon.
07-07-2018, 11:28 PM
#7
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
07-08-2018, 12:10 AM
#8
Le Mans Master
6x were late 70s 400 Trans Am big valve heads, best of the low compression non round port heads. Engine is probably 10 to 1. Firebird 400 would have 3.08 with auto 3.30ish gear with manual std. 3.55, 3.90, 4.33 optional.455 should not need alot of gear. Aluminum dual plane intake or 68-69 4 iron. Lose the egr intake. Should be a fun car.
07-08-2018, 12:13 AM
#9
Not sure if this would work on your set up or not, I’m not a mechanic or gear head by any means but my C6z starter would get heat soaked, I bought some gold heat tape from autozone and a starter heat shield from DEI, lifted the car and realized removing the starter to put the heat shield on was way more than I could do. So I turned the heat shield inside out and wrapped the header pipe that’s almost directly on top of the starter, bought a few stainless band clamps just cause I wasn’t going to trust only Velcro, I cut the gold tape into several sections and layered the outside of the starter as well, had to make a good bit of cuts to ensure I layered it properly and didn’t cover anything that needed to be open. Worked well, no more heat soak, no more slow crank, I never had a no crank and it didn’t a 100% fix the issue, I’d say 90%, on a 90+ degree day and a 20-30 min ride in traffic, if I run in some place and come out after only a few minutes it still doesn’t crank as fast as a cold start, probably not noticeable to anyone with though a C6z with long tubes, but it’s a tad slower, but no more sloooowww cranks for sure. I’m sure all the other more technical options are better, but for $40 and about 30 minutes with limited know how and tools it did what I wanted and damn near fixed the issue completely.
07-08-2018, 09:26 AM
#10
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
6x were late 70s 400 Trans Am big valve heads, best of the low compression non round port heads. Engine is probably 10 to 1. Firebird 400 would have 3.08 with auto 3.30ish gear with manual std. 3.55, 3.90, 4.33 optional.455 should not need alot of gear. Aluminum dual plane intake or 68-69 4 iron. Lose the egr intake. Should be a fun car.
Car started off as a 6 cylinder and he added the track plates to the floor and all the 400 parts off the other ones he had. Dual traction bars the whole nine. Everything is real OEM 67 parts. The only thing that isn't is some of the chrome outside and badging since when we had it sprayed he never got the original stuff redone. He had rally's for it too but they wouldn't fit on the disc conversion up front.
On a side note we also have a 78 ho block with 670 heads just laying around for a 68 we want to make into a straight track car. That combo should do around 11:1 iirc.
Not sure if this would work on your set up or not, I’m not a mechanic or gear head by any means but my C6z starter would get heat soaked, I bought some gold heat tape from autozone and a starter heat shield from DEI, lifted the car and realized removing the starter to put the heat shield on was way more than I could do. So I turned the heat shield inside out and wrapped the header pipe that’s almost directly on top of the starter, bought a few stainless band clamps just cause I wasn’t going to trust only Velcro, I cut the gold tape into several sections and layered the outside of the starter as well, had to make a good bit of cuts to ensure I layered it properly and didn’t cover anything that needed to be open. Worked well, no more heat soak, no more slow crank, I never had a no crank and it didn’t a 100% fix the issue, I’d say 90%, on a 90+ degree day and a 20-30 min ride in traffic, if I run in some place and come out after only a few minutes it still doesn’t crank as fast as a cold start, probably not noticeable to anyone with though a C6z with long tubes, but it’s a tad slower, but no more sloooowww cranks for sure. I’m sure all the other more technical options are better, but for $40 and about 30 minutes with limited know how and tools it did what I wanted and damn near fixed the issue completely.
07-08-2018, 10:00 AM
#11
Le Mans Master
The 670s are the best of the 65-67 closed chamber heads. The 78 400 block explains where the 6X heads came from. Together 10.5 -10.75 will require closed chamber pistons. The 68+ big valve open chamber heads are better. 4 piston disc was optional in 67-68 but requires a 14 × 7 Rally II wheel designed to clear them. I would guess it's has a 2.73.*
07-08-2018, 10:21 AM
#12
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
The one in the car is also a 78 block. The one that is just chilling is dressed how it was when he pulled it from this one. Theres also a full numbers matching 67 there as well it just needed everything. The 68 will drive with not much work.
And it's funny, the 15s on it now are pretty close to the calipers iirc.
And it's funny, the 15s on it now are pretty close to the calipers iirc.
Last edited by 84 4+3; 07-08-2018 at 10:22 AM.
07-08-2018, 10:43 AM
#13
Le Mans Master
Pontiac discontinued the 455 in 76. The 421,428, & 455 used a larger 3.25 main bearing. It is possible to get a stroker crank now with the 3.00 to fit the 326,350, 389, & 400 blocks. Back in the day they were uncommon, but some machine shops would cut down the larger journal cranks to fit the 400 blocks. So not sure it's actually a 455, the 455 crank is easily identified with the pan off. The pan won't come off with engine in car. Dimensionally 63-79 Pontiac engines are the same except the extremely rare 303 and 301 low deck engines.
07-08-2018, 10:49 AM
#14
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Pontiac discontinued the 455 in 76. The 421,428, & 455 used a larger 3.25 main bearing. It is possible to get a stroker crank now with the 3.00 to fit the 326,350, 389, & 400 blocks. Back in the day they were uncommon, but some machine shops would cut down the larger journal cranks to fit the 400 blocks. So not sure it's actually a 455, the 455 crank is easily identified with the pan off. The pan won't come off with engine in car. Dimensionally 63-79 Pontiac engines are the same except the extremely rare 303 and 301 low deck engines.
07-08-2018, 12:52 PM
#16
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Buddy has a full two post lift so everything will get banged out eventually. I'm not pulling another engine for a while.
07-08-2018, 08:16 PM
#17
The intake doesnt have egr, you can just see the plugged head side. (Port on the head is visible) It's an edlebrock I forget which though. Also I think it is numerically lower than 3.08, it is a 6 cylinder rear in there right now... the only one he was able to get apart to reseal. The thing basically idles at 55 mph... Also why he was scared to drive it any more than quarter throttle.
Car started off as a 6 cylinder and he added the track plates to the floor and all the 400 parts off the other ones he had. Dual traction bars the whole nine. Everything is real OEM 67 parts. The only thing that isn't is some of the chrome outside and badging since when we had it sprayed he never got the original stuff redone. He had rally's for it too but they wouldn't fit on the disc conversion up front.
On a side note we also have a 78 ho block with 670 heads just laying around for a 68 we want to make into a straight track car. That combo should do around 11:1 iirc.
I used a starter wrap from DEI and it helped a lot but it also helped keep the heat in when it would happen. At 90 degrees it took about 5-10 minutes to happen. Like I said, hopefully the remote solenoid works. If it doesnt I think I'll have the headers ceramic coated.
Car started off as a 6 cylinder and he added the track plates to the floor and all the 400 parts off the other ones he had. Dual traction bars the whole nine. Everything is real OEM 67 parts. The only thing that isn't is some of the chrome outside and badging since when we had it sprayed he never got the original stuff redone. He had rally's for it too but they wouldn't fit on the disc conversion up front.
On a side note we also have a 78 ho block with 670 heads just laying around for a 68 we want to make into a straight track car. That combo should do around 11:1 iirc.
I used a starter wrap from DEI and it helped a lot but it also helped keep the heat in when it would happen. At 90 degrees it took about 5-10 minutes to happen. Like I said, hopefully the remote solenoid works. If it doesnt I think I'll have the headers ceramic coated.
07-08-2018, 09:01 PM
#18
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
07-08-2018, 10:24 PM
#19
Safety Car
My 1979 Z28 that I drove through high school then restored with a supercharged 355 (Brodix Track 1 heads, custom blower cam, fully forged bottom end, head studs, etc.....) had starting issues (had to carry a big screwdriver to jump the starter quite often). I did the Ford solenoid swap and never had another issue afterwards, super easy and yielded good results with never having an issue again!!!!
07-13-2018, 01:19 AM
#20
Team Owner
My 1979 Z28 that I drove through high school then restored with a supercharged 355 (Brodix Track 1 heads, custom blower cam, fully forged bottom end, head studs, etc.....) had starting issues (had to carry a big screwdriver to jump the starter quite often). I did the Ford solenoid swap and never had another issue afterwards, super easy and yielded good results with never having an issue again!!!!