71frameoff

watching TV show Graveyard cars. the owner doing a burnt orange charger said that he always paints cars twice. it showed him painting the car (after primer and blocking) then wet sanding the car and repainting the car then clear and color sanding. he said it is done to see imperfections and to stop shrinkage etc. ?????? is this over kill or the best way to get a show car finish?

porchdog

no , it is quite common .

DUB

I 'double dip' Corvettes quite often when I am doing a full all over paint job.

I actually prefer to apply the base and allow it to flash off and dry overnight. Then I come in and scuff it and get it slick....apply my final coat of basecoat. Then clearcoat it...and then sand it and clear it again.

OR...I will base it and allow the final coat of base to REALLY DRY...often times giving it hours with the paint booth fans on so the solvents can a lot of time to get out...BUT YET ..I am still in the 'window' of time so I can apply the clear. When the basecoat has flashed off to my liking...I will apply two coats of clear....allow it to cure over night and I leave my booth fan on also.....then 16+ hours after I hung my paint gun up...I go in and sand the clear again and re-clear it again...then sand, buff, polish it.

The reason I like to allow the basecoat to have a lot of time to flash off is so that when I go in and begin to assemble the car and parts that get bolted to the finish do not moosh into the clear due to the paint is dry enough to sand and buff...but the paint can take an impression easily. I also use my infrared heaters to aid in curing the paint also in critical areas.

DUB

porchdog

solvents are not your friend .

DUB

Actually... they are your friend....because you have to have them so some products can be applied.... but these SAME solvents can be your worst nightmare.

There can be such a fine balance to get 'things' to perform as designed and then not come back and cause for some SERIOUS problems. Where dealing with repairing a problem...can EAT UP SO MUCH time that it would blow your mind and is sometimes inconceivable how much time it takes to repair a problem.

DUB

RePete

Would you do the same thing with a metallic or pearl base? Not a tri-coat, but a base with metallic mixed in. What about a House of Kolor base? I've read that's kind of a different set of rules with a short re-coat window. Sorry for all the questions, but i'm gearing up to paint my '85 next summer, and I'm in the gathering information stage.

porchdog

one of the biggest mistakes made is trapped solvents. solvents are a must to apply paint but left in the coat they are your worst enemy . solvent pop can destroy a job. most of the flash times and cure times stated in tech sheets are for collision work. few coats and thin clear. i push flash times to the extreme . when i put color on i let it set overnight then sand. letting it set for a day sanded allows solvents to escape .

DUB

You are correct to some point.

Having your tech sheet there....you will know what HOK wants you to allow the base to flash so the clear will chemically bond.

SO...for example....lets say that HOK wants the clear to go on the basecoat when the basecoat has flashed off for NO MORE than two hours. SO...you have a 2 hour 'window' and that is basing that on ambient air temps. (70F-85F). So...like 'porchdog' and I have written....lets say that we shot two coasts of base....and it does not matter if it is pearl, metallic or solid color. AND we let it dry overnight...sand it down a bit....and let it sit a week. ALL that is doing is allowing those 2 coats to vent out the solvents. AND...unless HOK is completely different. MOST paint companies basecoats will immediately bond to sanded basecoat due to the solvents you use in the basecoat when you thin it.

SO....regardless if you apply 2 coats of basecoat or 3 coats initially...and do what 'porchdog' and I have written...the amount of solvents that are coming out are not doing anything BAD for the paint job and the final coat of basecoat you apply to get it all even and perfect will only have that amount of solvents in it for the coat or two you apply to get it right.

I do know that some paint manufacturers DO NOT like their basecoat being water sanded.....but I believe that they are afraid that it is under a production scenario and often times do not advise it. I have watersanded my basecoat for 30+ years and have NEVER had any issue due to trapping moisture. BUT I do know of one basecoat that just does not like to be sanded on....it just ***** up and hard to feather out.

I have written this numerous times and sometimes what I write is applied and other times it is not. And what I write is do a TEST PANEL...and see what happens. Because if this is your first 'rodeo'...then WHY would you just jump in and NOT know what is going to happen??? SO many people will NOT use some of their paint and see what is going to happen...becasue they either are afraid that they may need to spend more money on paint ( OH MY GOSH!)...or do not need to do it becasue it is so easy paint a car. WELL...I can tell you from FIRST HAND experience.....the amount of TIME and MONEY is NOTHING compared to spraying out a lot of test panels to get used to and understand what the paint is going to do. And commonsense applies here....if a person shoots test panels in the winter when it is cold and then they want to paint the car in the spring or summer....there is NO WAY that the paint is going to react the same. UNLESS the person has the opportunity to make sure that the air temps coming in the booth and surface temps of the test panel are at a temp that it will be when they actually paint the car.

DUB

RePete

OK, that makes sense. I don't know, that's why i ask. BTW i plan to paint the car in summer 2017. i have a hood, door and nose (all partially damaged) to test on this summer (2016). i plan to have a ton of questions, so i'll start my own thread when the time comes.

DUB

YES...start your own thread when you are ready and asking questions is a SMART thing to do.

DUB

car junkie

I too am intrigued by this painting twice notion.

What Graveyard Carz is doing is not common by any stretch. I have heard of shops letting the clear coat set up for much longer than the re-coating window allows, block them down and re-clear to get better and flatter final results. Applying more clear within the allowed time frame for re coating is not even in the same ballpark. What they are doing is allowing the completed painted car to sit at least 30 days, blocking the entire car down again and then applying an overall new base coat for perfect panel to panel match and then re-clearing the entire outer body. It really is painting twice as in two complete paint jobs.

porchdog

no way i am basing/clearing twice. it makes no sense at all to clear then rebase. the reason for clearing twice is to limit thane wave . i do 3 coats black then do 2 more. by doig this i have only 2 coats of peel/trash/wave to deal with .

car junkie

I've done it a couple times the GC way only because I was not happy with the final results, they just make it a matter of course to achieve the results they want. I'm pretty sure I have seen all the episodes of GC and they only explained it one time in two recent episodes why they do it this way and it is what I said. Perfect continuous panel match and the elimination of imperfections, small waves and the like. It took two shows for the complete explanation. One when the painter Will was re blocking the pre paint as they call it and he pointed out some minor wave issues that were missed and then found for the final paint prep, he also spoke about shrinkage issues and the wait time in between pre paint and final paint. The second half of the explanation came when Mark said it was one of Will's botched previous paint jobs that was the reason for it. Apparently some panels were painted separately and when final assembled there was a bad color match. The story goes the customer was informed the car was ready to deliver, at the last minute the bad panel match was discovered, a frantic effort to prep and repaint the car, now all the cars get painted twice. It's a lot of paint and a lot of work but it does sound like the best way to get the best results. When there is extensive body work it seems something always gets overlooked. He also mentioned single stage paint jobs get the same treatment, no clear coats obviously.

DUB

100% I would NEVER basecoat a car then clear it....then... come back in and base it AGAIN and then clear it again....in my opinion...that is idiotic. Once again...that is my opinion.

All of the UV protection for the basecoat is in the clear as we all know by now..and covering it back up with base seems like a total waste of product.

Now I will 'double dip' the clear...or in certain scenarios such as using candy concentrates and designing pearls, metal flakes and applying graphics like flames or scallops, etc... where I have a texture on the surface.... I will overly thin my clear so I can effectively apply the candy and then apply the heck out of the clear...so much that when I am done the car, motorcycle or whatever looks like you literally dipped it in baby oil and it has almost no texture.

DUB

DUB

Extensive body work being overlooked...that is what I call the "Kiss of death"... and it seems that they are fixing their inability to get the body right for the paint job.

If a body man can do their job...and a painter knows how to check the body before it is painted...then many of these issues can be identified and corrected. God knows I can be doing the final inspection on the primer for a day or two to get it right before I seal it.

YES..I do agree...no matter how much time a painter spends in checking EVERYTHING.....there is always something that will show up....BUT it also depends on the painter and the shop in how they address these super minor flaws.

Seeing how I rarely shoot single stage...I guess they have a method that works for them. So...if it works for them.....I guess it is business s
as usual.

To be honest... I do not watch any of these type of shows....but to each his/her own. Not one of them impress me due to I see things that seem that it is being scripted for TV when I did watch some of them. HECK..I work in it all day..the last thing I want to do is watch it on TV.

DUB

car junkie

I think the painting twice idea as outlined by Graveyard Carz is a sound method to achieve show quality results every time. Common sense and having some experience with this tells me this method is an overall time saver especially when doing multiple cars at the same time. This method puts into the process a high level of quality control without having to think about it. Nothing shows the flaws like the last cured clear coat. Add to that the inevitable paint shrinkage weeks after. It makes total sense.

I don't think I have ever seen a ripple and wave free old Corvette.

Everyone likes to slam reality TV and for good reason, but consider reality websites. Which in "reality" is the most preposterous.

DUB

All good points....and I guess it depends on what a shop is trying to deliver as a finished product. 'SHOW QUALITY' is a term that can be interpreted different ways by many different people as you know. So..depending on the level of quality...it will cause a shop to perform certain tasks a way that they had found works for them to achieve the level that they are charging for.

Because as you know ( or it seems that you know about this)...excessive film thicknesses of paint..WHEN it gets chipped can go so deep and be so thick that repairing that deep chip can be more of a pain in the backside than it is worth....especially when the repair HAS TO match the level of excellence that was presented to the customer in the first place.

As you also know....and I KNOW you know this for a FACT...a 'trained/experienced eye' can pick a car to death in regards to paint and body flaws.

DUB

car junkie

It's interesting how the definition of quality paint and body work has changed over the years. As I'm sure you know, a body man even good ones would lie about how much filler was used in their work to straighten panels. Any needed filler was a source of shame and if you needed to use more than a little of it you were immediately labeled a hack artist that didn't know what he was doing by those not in the know. Now it's common practice to completely skim coat bodies with filler and be proud of it. Followed by layers of spray polyester and high build primers over that. Total film build thicknesses over the base surface have reached outrageous proportions. Two paint jobs on top of that doesn't seem to make much difference if you think about it. They do block a lot of clear off before the second final paint, I don't know how much of course. You would think there final base coats would be thin because they're going over the same base color and then the clears. I don't recall them saying how many clear coats but it must be plenty, probably five at least I would guess judging by the aggressive use of DA wet sanders to knock it down. Personally I like these methods. I haven't done the full skim coat treatment over the entire car yet but spray polyester has improved my final results considerably and in a lot less time.

I went to the Grand National Oakland roadster show a couple of times. Fabulous and flawless customs abound. Huge 50's and 60's cars with eight foot long perfect ripple free quarter panels. Cars that were sliced and diced in every way imaginable and not a flaw or ripple to be found. These guys are certainly not worried about film build. I bring this up because it's cars like this that has made the excessive use of fillers the thing to do. Most everyone into old cars these days wants this level of perfection on their cars and it takes filler and lots of it to get there.

DUB

I am aware of 'those type of cars' all to well...but what is funny....when they are 'retired' from the show circuit and put out on the road on a REGULAR BASIS....I have seen some that literally begin to fail BADLY. And they fall apart much faster than cars that do not have the insane mil's of paint put on them.

DUB