Darkness

My feelings exactly.

phils C5 vette

first I was confused when I read the article. Now im really confused.
30 hp from a cam OR
30 hp from the heads

I just bought a TR224 cam that I havent installed, but not im thinking I should have just went with AFR heads and no driving issued

Pitch Black Z

Power
RPM..........LS1..........AFR......AFR w 224...LS1-AFR...LS1 -AFR+224
3.0............214..........217......... ..229...........3................15
3.5............257..........262......... ..274...........5................17
4.0............307..........323......... ..330...........16..............23
4.5............361..........375......... ..381...........14..............20
5.0............401..........427......... ..447...........26..............46
5.5............415..........451......... ..486...........36..............71
5.8............421..........455......... ..499...........34..............78
5.9............420..........458......... ..502...........38..............82
6.0............415..........457......... ..505...........42..............90
6.5............393..........451......... ..507...........58..............114

The 2nd to the last column is the difference in power between the AFR and Stock LS1 heads. Basically the only change was a head swap. The final column is the difference between the heads+cam and the stock LS1. This is from the same magazine that you read.

Am I impressed? I have to agree with one of the above posters. Up until these heads came along the cost just wasn't worth it IMO. You could get more from a cam swap and bolt ons that from ported stockers. In fact people are still trying to justify to themselves paying $2k for ported stockers with 230cc runner volumes as "good" buys on the other board .

From the limited information that has been posted on these heads, they seem to be at least a 40hp bolt on mod. Thats the equivalent of some of the smaller cams, i.e. TR224 etc. With the LSX intake, 90mm TB and these heads IMO once some talented heat porters and cam designers get going on these parts I think we are going to see some EXTREMELY powerful drivable setups. Tony M's car is an attestament to that.

G-lock

After reading the mags and this thread there is one comparison I'd like to see, and that is a stock LS1 without a billet TB, upgraded intake and headers, which is the way the mags tested the heads on the dyno. So I wish someone would take a 30,000 mile LS1, with vette or F-body exhaust manifolds, factory TB and factory tune and test the heads. Then put in the LS1Edit tune and tell us what that does. Otherwise, I feel these dyno numbers are meaningless, because if I put headers on my car, a huge billet TB and custom dyno tune and then put on heads and only got 58 horses over my base 350 FWHP, I'd be major bent! But one might also figure that the gain is more since if you go from 350 to 421(TB,Tuning, Intake,Headers) and then add the AFR's then maybe 58 horse ain't all that bad. Interesting thoughts. Jeff

#001 2001 Z06

So what is the difference between the ported AFR Heads and the stage III+ LS6 heads that flow 333+?

Lets compare apples to apples. I do not know anyone that is buying ported LS1 heads when LS6 heads are readily available.

Pitch Black Z

For someone who likes to compare apples to apples you sure like to compare apples to oranges .

Just because YOU don't know anybody, doesn't mean its not happening. In fact Patriot Performance, along with other tuners,are using truck head castings that are very similar in design to LS6 heads and passing on the savings to the customers.

As far as to answer your initial question, run a search. The additional features have been highlighted in several posts already, including this one.

#001 2001 Z06

I said, I did know anyone that would waste their money on LS1 Heads. I know at least fifty people with modified race heads. LS6, 6.0, C5R heads. So do not mis-quote me.

Another Troll. I have read evey post for the last two months concerning this topic on this forum, the Z06forum and LS1 tech forum. Further, I have the very best people in the industry work on my car.

Again, back up your statement with an modified AFR head vs. a stage III+ LS6 head (333+ intake flow at .600 lift)

I guessing that stage IIR MTI head(.320 flow at .600) or semi-modified CARTEK head would yield the same performance results. I do not see them selling the AFR's on their sites. Nor have I have seen DRM or Lingenfelter sell them on their sites.

I am not saying that your heads are not better or worse. They may be great. I do know that you selling flawed data. Comparing your modified aftermarket head to a stock LS1 or stock LS6 head is a crock. Providing that they are proven to be better by the reputable builders in the industry, I might even think about buying some your heads.

Until then you are selling snake oil and attempting to lighten my fellow corvette owners wallets, imo. I think that is very uncool.


[Modified by #001 2001 Z06, 5:23 PM 7/4/2004]

#001 2001 Z06

Looks like the flow numbers are an almost exact duplicate of the MTI basic bottom of the line stage IIe LS1 heads flow curve to me.
Not to mention that MTI has a number heads that flow much better.
LS1 II R, LS6 IIR, LS1 III & LS6 III http://www.motorsporttech.com/c5_engine01.asp http://www.airflowresearch.com/

I think I wait until the big major aftermarket tuners use these and give the thumbs up.

Pitch Black Z

Isn't that exactly what I stated, truck heads are the ones being used? Thanks for reiterating my point with your rebuttal.

You coulda fooled me. Then why are you asking questions that have been clearly answered already? Kinda funny since the same info has been posted on the forums you mentioned. You know since you have "read every post". Its good that you have the best people working on your car, want a cookie?

Hate to disappoint ya, but I am no troll. I am not on these forums to stir up trouble, just look for information. My contribution to the membership was posting up this HARD DATA BY WESTECH.

Since apparently you've "read every post" then you might have overlooked the 205cc runner intake volume. So your looking at a 12% reduction in runner volume, compared to the 230cc runner volume quoted by MTI on the II E heads (its posted on this forum, run a search), at nearly the same flow rate.

Here, a little more tech info for you

Mass flow = air density * Cross-sectional area* velocity

assuming constant air density, since its a relatively short runner, and since its almost the same flow rate what do you think will happen?

I'll let you chew on that one for awhile.

In fact why don't you call MTI, LPE, DRM, LGM, TEA or your tuner of choice and ask them what can happen when you reduce runner volume by 12% and see what they respond. Just fundamental fluid mechanics...........

I don't know why they choose not to sell them. Maybe you know the answer to that question? I would like to know to. They have proven products, just like AFR has proven heads. Besides LGM is now selling them, and so is TSP. I guess the heads suck don't they? Because we all know their cars don't perform....

My heads? I don't sell heads! Why are you making that assumption? Who do you think I represent?

Flawed data? Seems like a legitimate experiment to me. You first set a baseline then you change a variable. One Variable at a time (perferably), in this case it was a head swap and only a head swap. Besides, what are you jumping on me for, I only posted what was published in a national magazine , any other forum members could have done the same.

You sure about that? You're defending $1800+ sets of ported stockers vs a completely redesigned and improved aftermarket head that is just a few hundred dollars more. No thanks, I don't want any snake oil


[Modified by Pitch Black Z, 5:23 PM 7/4/2004]

#001 2001 Z06

Insulting people here is not going to get you anywhere and I personally could care less.

When the proven tuners replace what they are selling with AFR's, proof will be the pudding. I personally do not think the major tuners will switch.

Irregardless, I honestly wish you luck in your endevors and have a fantastic day.

There could be variety of reasons a few(very few) tuners are selling them. Profit, trying to induce a product cycle to drum business, etc., etc..

I am done with this topic for now. I have guests to attend too.