Nitro-C5

Great discussion Guys....we need more of this in this forum section!

The way I look at technology is like this. Lets say you have capable Corvette that you track every now and again. Now you have an opportunity to switch from the Stock Wheels to some expensive Carbon Fiber saving abit of unsprung weight and thus relating to a mild performance gain.. Do you feel the difference? Is the 1 second per lap time worth it to you? Are you an occasional track person, or someone who is serious? Are you making money at the track and will that 1 second be the difference between winning and losing? Do you NEED the new wheels or do you just WANT the new wheels? Are you a good enough driver to actually take advantage of the reduced wheel weight? Could you turn much better track times if you just practiced at the track more vs. buying more track orientated equipment? etc... etc...

There are no rights and wrongs here and lets be honest we ALL spend money on stuff we don't really need but rather just want. One of the first questions I get form my students is "What gear should we buy?" I always say the same thing. Unless you want to spend money for the sake of spending money don't upgrade any gear unless you know that you need it and you are maxing out your current gear! For example is someone says they just want to take snapshots on their vacation then I would recommend just sticking with their camera phone as it will do everything the user needs in that scenario. As I mentioned previously I was a relatively late adopter to Mirrorless as my previous (and current back up) DSLR will still do 99% of the things I want it to do, but (for me anyway) that 1% of the time where I could use an active live view or enhanced focus tracking a mirrorless just made sense as an upgrade.

wmstumme

I totally agree with Nitro above. If you have a DSLR and it is doing what you need, I wouldn't recommend running out to buy the latest and greatest Mirrorless just 'cause it is new unless you just have money to burn.

One exception If someone is just getting started in getting interested/serious in photography (more than cell phone snapshots) and does NOT already have a DSLR and bunch of lenses, then I'd strongly recommend going straight to Mirrorless. Even if you might be able to get some good prices / discounts on some still very capable older gear, I think it would be better to move on to what is going to likely have longer legs. (What brand? well--let that be a ((heated)) discussion for another thread...) Camera manufacturers are strongly signaling they are moving on from DSLR's to Mirrorless. It will take time, but expect factory service, parts, etc., to start drying up. Just like any of us who have older generation Corvettes, some stuff just isn't available anymore, and technicians eventually will not know how to repair/deal with the problems from a DLSR.

There is always going to be new gear. You can drive yourself crazy trying to keep up.

I definitely feel the tug to buy whenever I see the new gear--but I really know I can't buy my way to better pictures. I am the bigger factor in my photographic failures way more than the gear.

CrystalRedTed

I find some of this discussion relative to upgrading camera equipment rather hilarious being that it's on the Corvette Forum. Most people here have cars they don't "need" and many upgrade them in ways that make no sense when they aren't even fully using what they have. Now with cameras everyone wants to be mature and businesslike. That's the beauty of hobbies - you can do what you want because you enjoy it and it doesn't have to make any sense.

Many pro photographers use older equipment because they have to make a business decision. It is doubtful that even Nitro could show a business case that would motivate a move to mirrorless. Sure there may be some benefits to mirrorless that he values highly and can justify it that way (as he has explained.) But I doubt he is going to get any more or any fewer clients because he's got a mirrorless camera.

Now I do think it is the right thing to encourage inexperienced people to work on their skills before spending a lot of money on upgrades. This isn't even a hobby for many of them and some really think that a nice camera automatically provide nice pictures (sort of like a fast car automatically makes you a fast driver, right?) Anyone who is a teacher or mentor has a duty to provide sound advice. But I'd guess the more common case is that someone has already bought the fancy camera or the fast car and only seeks advice when they realize that those things did nothing to improve their results.

I wouldn't necessarily discourage anyone from upgrading to mirrorless just because DSLRs are good enough. DSLRs were good enough 5+ years ago. If you have one, it does what you need, and you never expect to want or need more, then stick with it. However, if someone knows they will upgrade at some point, can benefit from the improvements, and has the interest and money to pursue it, then there's nothing wrong with that. All of the new development and innovation is in mirrorless. DSLRs are never going to get better than they are now and I would argue that selling them is never going to get easier than it is now.

Nitro-C5

Excellent points, I love these types of respectful discussions

Regarding your point in bold above, I actually agree with you on that point as well. Although I am considered a Professional this is something very part time for me on purpose. My passion is creating and if I can make money at it, then win win! To that point I would never suggest someone to follow my photography path if they were going to look at it as a sole money making venture. I shoot many things simply because I love a subject but might not be any real money in it....I admit I have upgraded equipment many times more because I want something than a real need. To that point newer equipment rarely makes someone a "better" photographer and I would argue in many instances it makes them much worse because they rely upon the new technology to magically produce a "better" image...then most get lazy and they don't understand the fundamentals of controlling lighting, framing, telling a story, varying settings to give a unique look etc...

All of that said, for me personally although going to mirrorless from a DSLR is really not going to make me anymore money I did it more for the simplicity sakes. I shoot a vast variety of subject matters from about any subject you can think of and because of that about 2 years ago I had (5) bodies I used all of the time. 5Dsr for landscape and macro or if I knew I needed huge prints, 7D2 and 1D2 for sports action (main and backup) then a 5D3 and 5D4 as my do everything cameras (main and backup). It was overkill by almost all standards.

I found the R5 (mirrorless) to be so good it does everything those more specialty bodies due plus even better as a general purpose body. So now I have the R5 as the main body and my 5D4 as my backup. I will likely pick up an R3 (or R1) if they make one and then sell my last DSLR. So to me it was not only about consolidating bodies but also about the new lens choices like the RF 85mm 1.2L which is absolutely superiors in every way the EF 85mm 1.2L. I can shoot Top Fuel Dragsters at night using the RF 85mm 1.2L and nail focus wide open...that one thing alone (for me anyway) was worth the upgrade. Now when you start factoring in IBIS and you can handhold a lens for 1-2 seconds those are the types of images that are very difficult for any current DSLR to capture.

Bottom line is, you are correct. There is a not a big reason for anyone to really upgrade unless you are fully utilizing the body and lenses you already have. If you take a basic kit lens and put it on both a DSLR and Mirrorless camera and you are shooting more stationary subjects in good light at around f8...there is no way anyone would ever tell the difference what body you are using...actually in that scenario most people could not tell if you were using a DSLR or a camera phone. That said when you start hitting those extremes and/or gear limits then you will see a little separation. Just as my example earlier its like buying a sports car...if you are not hitting the limits of your current car on the track and/or if you just like cruising to coffee and cars an upgraded model will make zero difference besides bragging rights.

CrystalRedTed

Thanks for taking the time to respond. That all makes perfect sense. Kudos for generating some income for your efforts as well!

I can tell you a situation where everyone will know whether you are using a DSLR vs Mirrorless - theater, concerts, and weddings. Click click click sounds no more. As I mentioned earlier, this has been a big deal for me. I could probably argue that it improves results, since I don't have to avoid taking photos at certain moments. However, no business case for me either - these are all volunteer (voluntold) activities. My wife is a Choir Director and Musical Director. She likes having the best photos of her events. My high level of equipment needs are merely in support of her efforts

Nitro-C5

Ohh yeah, you bet. I love discussing photography and gear so please by all means ask questions, add to the conversation, disagree, argue, make observations etc... This is why I love ART...there are rarely "rights or wrongs" it is more about artistic impression. I honestly do not feel I have a strong "artistic" side as I still stuggle with making shots interesting (it is just not a natural process for me personally). That said because I do struggle I look at it as an opportunity to grow and learn and to me that is part of the fun.

Also I am with you on the gear...an I KNOW I am not alone on this one. It is kinda like doing a repair on your car....you may not have ever NEEDED at specific type of tool but often times we will tackle a project requiring a special one and then we justify buying it, even if we will only use it once ever! It's like we are in search of a project where we can use our new STUFF! I bought an entire Lee Filter system of ND (3-6-10stop), Graduated ND filters and Reverse Grad ND Filters. The are not may landscapes in the world that would require such gear and I have only used them on (3) photo trips ever....BUT the photos I was able to capture would have been impossible to achieve without these very specific niche tools.

KnightDriveTV

Personally, after 13 years of professional video and photography, I've never truly referred to myself as a professional. I have gotten paid for photography and video (to this day and everyday, day in day out) but somehow never truly felt like I was a professional, but more of a real enthusiastic hobbyist. I suppose it's because cars were always my focus; owning shops, chassis dyno, fab, etc while photo/video supplemented my businesses. That being said...if you look at my "gear" list over the past 13yrs...it's literally everwhere. Sony, then Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, and back to Sony. That's the camera side, while on video end you can add in 8 different era GoPro's, 4 different DJI's units and now the newest air units for FPV, as well as phones and more.

I can't honestly say why I returned to Sony even...I'm not even sure...lol. Currently I run a duo of Sony A7C and Sony A74 with a quad setup of lenses, Gmaster 70-200 F2.8, two Sony lenses and a tamron, etc. I had no resistance at all going to mirrorless, due to my video side it drew me to it. I have never shot in auto modes in my life, from the start...I've always used all of the cameras bandwidth of capability to create shots of various types...video and photo. I've always used all my cameras for video production, as well as photo, so combo capability has always drawn my attention. I seem to just flow with what comes out and frankly, everyone out there makes a pretty good product, but it's in the VERY fine details where you see winners and losers.

To most people, like stated...they feel an Iphone is giving them 99% of the experience. Only when you really push toward the outer edges of what can be done with a camera, will those differences start to really show themselves. If someone shoots with an Iphone vs a modern something like an A74 with an appropriate lens, the differences are staggering and if those differences aren't known then the user isn't truly in a challenging shooting scenario. I disagree phones will catch cameras because cameras are also pushing the envelope, just as hard.

DSLR...I won't and don't miss it.

Aerovette

Just passing through to drop a quick comment.

For those saying a phone camera will get the job done, I'll offer this.

I went to see Tran Siberian Orchestra last night. I have taken my camera to several concerts. This event, I took just my phone.

I was GREATLY disappointed and wish I had taken even my worst camera. Phones do NOT get the job done. Of the pictures I took, I tried to pick the BEST of them for this post. I had decent seats and lighting was not all that much of a problem. This is all my phone could offer up. They are pathetic. The only one that came remotely close to what was in my head, was the third one and it still sucks.

Phones will never do the work of a camera unless you have dementia and simply need a reminder that you went somewhere.

KnightDriveTV

Iphone pictures look good on an iphone screen and that's where it ends. The image falls apart, especially low light or zoom images. They rely solely on enhancement...never going to get enough light into these tiny lenses with tiny sensors.

Nitro-C5

Thanks for sharing and contributing guys

I obviously agree with both of you on your points. I do NOT mean this next statement in an elitist/condescending tone, but if someone cannot tell the quality difference between a Mirrorless/DSLR (being properly used) and their iPhone then they should absolutely just stick with their camera phone and there is no shame in that! To my earlier point if you are not shooting anything that require any degree of difficulty/skill and/or you are just sharing your snapshots on social media platforms where others are viewing them on a small digital screen you simply do not need good/great gear....a better investment would be photography lessons, but again that is a different topic all together.

Mr D.

If there is something less than an amateur photographer that would be me at this point. I have a Nikon D700 and D3 both of which are low shutter count and I have very little money into, spent more for a single lens than I have in both cameras. For now the DSLR works just fine for me and to upgrade to mirrorless at this point would be unproductive. I need to continue learning to shoot what I have.

However, I am waiting to see what this Nikon Z8 unicorn is going to be all about.

TwoSmoke

Z8 will be soon I hope.

I'm ready to upgrade to a full frame mirrorless.

To answer the thread title question: Yes. Mirrorless is the future.

Every camera company is developing mirrorless tech and DSLR is going the way of the Dodo bird.

TwoSmoke

I was thinking of getting a D850 myself.

I don't have a lot of DSLR equipment so now I'm jumping on the mirrorless bandwagon when I upgrade.

There is an adapter that lets you use F mount lenses on the Z mount mirrorless cameras.

TwoSmoke

I guess I'll keep this going here.

I just bought a ProArt monitor.

Doesn't work with my old computer. My old computer doesn't have DP out connections or HDMI. I guess I can buy an adapter.

But, my old computer is old, 2009.

I'm going to build a new one.

My question now is: What types of computer setups are you using?

I'm a windows guy.

shenango

As far as extinct as with the Dodo, Mastodon and Tyrannosaur it will never happen. There is still a very large following of glass plate and tin plate photographers as well as an enormous group of film devotees. It would be more accurate to say the DSLR technology will continue to fall out of favor and be second choice to mirrorless in the future. The cell phone camera tech will continue to get better and probably be dominant with the casual "point and click" people. The top of the line DSLR will maintain a strong following with the studio and sports pros but will sooner or later fall victim to newer tech. Whether that newer tech is mirrorless or smaller more affordable medium format offerings remains to be seen. There is one thing you can bet the house on. The format change of consumer grade cameras is not over and newer, better will come out every generation or two.

Thanks for reading; Jerry

Nitro-C5

I upgrade computers about every 3-4 years. Below are my current specs I am running on current system which is about 3 years old now. For photography (and my purposes) I find it much more beneficial and cost effective to do custom builds. The system listed below about 3 years ago cost me ~$4,500 not including the monitors which were in the $1000 range each.

Intel i7 - 8700 at 3.70 ghz
128 gb RAM
12 TB of Solid State Hard Drives
2 TB of M.2 of Memory on the Mother board
10 TB WD Back up hard drive
GTX 970 Graphics Card
Windows 10 Pro

(2) ASUS 32" 4k ProArt Monitors

TwoSmoke

Thanks. That helps a lot.

TwoSmoke

Article: 2022 was officially the year of the mirrorless camera.


https://petapixel.com/2023/02/15/202...orless-camera/



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76-Vetteman

I'm glad to see the era of the mirrorless camera. It offers a lot of technology improvements over the DLSR.

Thank goodness Canon is offering an adapter to mount EF glass onto the mirrorless body, because I have a lot of expensive lenses, so I won't be giving up my Canon 5DIII and my 1DXII anytime soon.

I'm still waiting for a time when the manufacturers resolve problems that kill a photographs like 'rolling shutter', and of course a solution to longer battery life. But I admit, I'm really excited about advances of 'In Body Stabilization', subject tracking, and the lower light performance newer mirrorless cameras provide.

Photography is about light, and without light reflecting from the subject, there would be no photograph. Many photographs from Ansel Adams work were from an 8X10 inch view camera. True, his photographic media was a lot less sensitive than our sensors today, but during the exposure cycle of his camera, his media received an untold number of photons above and beyond what our cameras receive today. Every photon his media received left an imprint, and that imprint reflected in his work. That's the technical side. Adams genius side was his artist ability to visualize the photograph he wanted, and this truly shows in his body of work.

But as far as mirrorless goes, I know as many others; someday I will have to move on from the DLSR. The benefit of mirrorless will pave the way.

BillT (very amateur photographer)