Salvage Title Issued by Arizona
 

Just my luck. I took delivery of my 1970 BB vert (NOM) last night and went to register it today. The seller provided a clean Florida title. Upon inspection AZ MVD ran the VIN in their data base and it came up as salvaged in 1987. AZ MVD proceeded to erase the VIN from the drivers side windshield pillar and attached a new AZ VIN while issuing a restored salvage title with the stipulation of purchasing a surety bond.

I am not at all happy!

I was able to go back 3 owners (5-7 years) all who had clean titles. Does any one have any idea what database AZ might have accessed and why the previous 3 states did not find the "salvage" record? Is there anyway that I can do my own research to help track down what might have happened?

The seller wants to make things right and I believe that he honestly passed the vehicle along unknowingly.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you

Lou

ask for half of your money back

take a large cash settlement and walk on over to the resto mod crowd we have a lot of fun.... or give it back to the previous guy and get your money back.....its done, nothing you can do about, don't beat yourself up over this.....

Thanks- I think the seller would provide some cash back. The car is actually great and I would not mind keeping it. However, is there any chance that AZ MVD could have made a mistake? Do they have access to info that other states do not have???? I sure would rather have a clean title than the $$$.

You are SOL. Someone in the past washed the title thru a state that didn't issue salvage titles. This was not uncommon in the 60's,70's and 80's. The deed is done now and you have to live with a flawed title. Cut the best deal you can with the seller and live with it or get your money back if you want.

You can see if you can get more information from the AZ DMV as to why a salvage title was issued and verify that it is your car. The VIN# is a pretty good indicator that there is no mistake.

You might not want to find out too much because the title may have been purchased and your car may have taken on a new identity. You could find out that your car is stolen and you could lose it. It was not uncommon to buy a title and a vin tag from a totaled vehicle and make a stolen car saleable by changing vin tags. Look closely at the tag on the windshield pillar and make sure it looks perfect.

Seems strange to do that to a 1970, when you consider that cars are routinely restored by taking them entirely apart and putting them back together using lots of new parts. I am not sure how the process works but certain states have been historically easy about washing titles. Not sure how to research it. Seriously doubt it is a mistake. Did the guy actually deface your vin plate? :eek: that truly sux! :(


I always thought having a clean title for my car in my state put me in the clear. But with no centralized database is it possible that any of our cars (with an unknown ownership history) could have a salvage title in one of our 50 states???? :willy:

I wonder if your DMV would have searched the vin and warned you about the salvage title if you had asked them BEFORE you purchased it? With no carfax available pre 1981 that's the only way you could find out. Why do I think they wouldn't look it up until after you own it? :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=PRND21] Did the guy actually deface your vin plate? :eek: that truly sux! :(

He did it right in front of me.


I always thought having a clean title for my car in my state put me in the clear. But with no centralized database is it possible that any of our cars (with an unknown ownership history) could have a salvage title in one of our 50 states???? :willy:

Scary thought.

[QUOTE=LouAZ]DAMN! I would have told him to get the f away from my car and give me more info on what the heck he found in the database. No way would I allow them to touch my car under those circumstances!
No law I know of requires that a vehicle be titled. You could hold the old title and park it in your yard as a lawn ornament for all the state should care.

AZ BMV has a really screwed up way of doing things. I tried to do a title search on the wifes 79 and they came back with "we can only go back ten years". Never ran into this with any other state. Too much sun on the brain in AZ. On your deal I ask for my money back.

I just found out that it appears that as of 2004 AZ began participating the National Motor Vehicle Title Information System (NMVTIS) program. This database is a national database admnistered by the DOJ. Only 10 or so states subscribe but the list is growing.

http://www.aamva.org/vehicles/veh_AutoSystNMVTIS.asp

Deface
 

[QUOTE=LouAZ][QUOTE=PRND21] Did the guy actually deface your vin plate? :eek: that truly sux! :(

He did it right in front of me.


Dude,..... You let some JERK at the DMV run a screw driver over you VIN plate in front of you? If he tried it with me theyd be scraping him up off the pavement! Aint no law that allows defacement of property without a court order. Man that took some balls on his part! :bs Look let me give yo a little advice, Firstly NEVER take the car your registering to the DMV when you register it! Youy never know what they might come up with , their arrogent SOB's and second grab the guys arm or at least ask for the law! :nono: People are gettin awfull pushy these days!

So can you find out what they supposedly found that was wrong?

Let me say again, that really sux!! It's real easy to sit here and say, "I wouldn't have let that guy touch my car" but who knows what I would have done if the guy acted before I even figured out what he was doing. However, I didn't take my vette to DMV (or customs) when I processed the paperwork.

I should but the folks that I was dealing with at MVD would not provide me the info. I have a couple of ideas on how to get around them now that I know the source of the data.

The frightening thing is that as more States join this program, they will be able to catch items from the past- transfering a clean title could become a risky proposition. Case in point...

AZ requires that the out of state cars be inspected prior to re-titling. For a level II inspection (missing a federal sticker) you are not allowed to be in sight of the car during the inspection. The damage was done when they came to me with the paperwork. Your right it SUX!

the idiots in phx told me i needed a level 2 inspection because they didn't like where the tag was on my 65. i drove away and went to scottsdale were it breezed thru.i am not sure why your car needed a level II. i built and ran a lot of bikes thru level 2s. a lot of what happens seems to be the luck of the draw.If you plan on keeping the car i would not settle for an Az assigned vin. it will screw with your insurance as well as resale. you are in a tough place. i would be tempted to do a wash in a more forgiving state. back in the day, nevada and alabama where two that come to mind. good luck finding out any info from MVD in Az. they give you phone number, that will give you another number, that will keep giving you numbers till one just dosen't answer.me, i would probably wash it , the bring it back thru one of the private 3rd party DMVs, they seem to be a lot less interested in details then the state workers.Of coyrse they might be a problem because of the age of the car. the 3rd party places can only process cars of a certin age.
good luck

They assigned me an AZ VIN and put the plate on the car and gave me an application for the special VIN. I have not yet gone down and titled the car. Any idea on how to fight them on the AZ VIN if I decide to keep it? I am so pissed I wouldn't mind hiring an attorney if need be.

afraid not as i never had it go that far. since you are looking at substantial finacial damage I would think it is worth holding off and getting some more info on your options.

step back for a minute......

what you need is a car that you can legally sell to others.....you have that.....

you have a buyer who will refund your money in full .... you have that..

Spend no money or effort on this.....if you can live with the AZ title keep the car and get a cash discount....

if you can't get ......your money back

:iagree:

I would not spend the money for an attorney on this. Not really worth the cost. The attorney fees would most likely eat up any refund you rreceive from the seller for the purchase price due to the problems you are having. Get your money back or negtioate a great deal with the seller and keep the car. Either way you win.

Title was "washed" by either a state with no salvage titles or one that didn't require titles that far back. Alabama is both. Georgia wouldn't require a title that far back. There are others.

Get advice from CnV. I hear they know how to wash titles. Sarcasm aside, seriously, it wouldn't hurt to ask them if they had any ideas on how to handle your situation.

WOW after reading this all my problems seem minute compared to yours. i wish you the best of luck with getting this settled and hopefully they have to honor and replace the original VIN and hopefully they made a mistake and have to fix it. sorry to hear about your misfortune and i wish you the best of luck.

What he has is:
A car that no longer has the original VIN, indicating it's been salvaged and thus is worth a fraction of what it would be with a real VIN


A car that he can legally sell to others at a greatly reduced price

A car that no longer has the VIN it was sold with. There's no way in hell I'd buy back a car I sold to someone if it was going to be returned with a different VIN

I'd want to get to the bottom of it. Find out what happened and why that makes them think it warrants a salvage title.

I'd almost think your florida seller figured out that it had a bad title -- since the database that AZ uses with the DOJ is also used by Florida.

Side note: cars are required to be TITLED in many states -- Louisiana is one for sure. Somes states allow old cars to be sold on a bill of sale only. Registration (so that a car can be used on the road) is different from titles and is most likely not required.

Arizona Gov sucks, I know I live here.

If you're going to keep the car (in AZ) I would spend the $100 to talk to an attorney for his advise. They have damaged your vechile without your permission. If you're lucky you may even be able to collect some from the insurance company. If nothing else write a letter to your congressman explaining the violation that has occured, it could help the next one of us.

If it happened to me I wouldn't throw out the idea of a small claims suit either.

So how far back can they now go in AZ doing title searches?

If I read this right.. he doesnt have a VIN to wash anymore.. though I wouldnt do that anyway .. as all you would be doing is hosing the next owner in line making you no better than the wanker who washed it in the first place.

If the Vin is destroyed...i see little chance in getting it repaired or restored, unless someone knows somebody who stamps new Vin plates and can rivet it back in place...and you would still need to explain it I guess.

If it were me, unless it were my dream Vette then I would return it to the seller and get my money back, however as somebody else has already pointed out, it now has a different VIN which significantly reduces the cars value to that seller...

Bit of a sticky wicket it seems to me....

Good luck...hopefully it will work out in the end for you.

Wonder why AZ didn't re-VIN it when it was salvaged the first time?

Everyone beware........Someone up furhter said this was common in the 70s. It still happens. Consumer Reports did an investigation on this last year. They followed a new Mercedes which was totaled with less than 2500 miles on it. This car went through five states and laudered the title and was resold as an almost new Mercedes. This laundering was done by a major insurance company and was not illegal to do. They typically run it through any number of states which don't issue salvage titles. I understand that there is a federal movement afoot to make salvage titles mandatory in all states, but as of right now it still can happen. I wouldn't worry too much if the car appears to be entirely rebuilt and everything looks in order and it drives fine. The problem is the lost value next time around. Most insurance companies total cars when the damages exceed 60% of the value. The car may have been totaled with just a smashed back or side when the cars value was low, maybe 10 years after it was new. It doens't take much especially nowadays to total cars, as the repair costs are high. It would be nice to knwo what the damage was though.....

I had an expert look at it yesterday and it looks great. Frame is fine. I'd like to keep it but I am trying to work out some cash back. I paid 13K and offered him 50% to make me whole. Not sure I could ever re-sell it or recoup any future money I put in it. I bought through ebay who has fraud protection- it actually gives me a lot of leverage.

As they implement this new federal database a lot more of this could happen-- clean titles getting retagged as salvage when they are transferred.

Lou

there are guys like the NCRS types (not knocking ) that would never touch this....me on the other hand would not care less....i have a HP 350, 700r4 and steeroids in my 77 and as soon as i get xtra cash will put in a removable rear window...and as far as recouping money forget about it....the next guy always wins the "buy it for a bargain deal".... ...hold fast on the 50%....it will cost him something to come pick it up and to retitle it.....and make sure on the title you put his name down so he has to go through the retitling aspect....good luck!

Thanks-

Actually the AZ MVD told me not to title it in my name and just sent it back to him with the AZ inspection paperwork and let him work it out with AZ MVD. Now that sounds like a lot of fun!

I live in Texas and I spoke with my insurance company who told me that I can have my car inspected to remove a salvage status on its title. I would try attempting this with the state of AZ.

I also work with the AZ DMV all the time for the titling of Mobile Homes(they are issued vehicle titles) and they are a PITA. Extremely a-retentive and meticulous. Call around and see if you can get the salvage status removed pending an inspection of the vehicle by a certified vehicle inspector. Ask around at different AZ dmv's in different cities and try to get a hold of some managers and not the phone peons. They'll just try and get you off the phone.

In my case if I never drop the "salvage" from my title, I won't really care that much because I never plan on selling it, but it is important to a lot of people and I wish you the best of luck.

AZ is not the only state that requires a inspection on a vechicle comming in from out of state. When we bought the wifes 79 from AZ and brought it into Indiana we had to have a police officer come out to the house and sign the inspection form.

Sound advise, this will haunt you in the future and will be questioned by others, jmo it's not worth the aggravation....

I don't think i'd try and screw the guy if he didn't know. I bought a salvaged bike a year ago, from some guy in tennessee, and when they retitled it here in MI, the new title didn't say salvage. They eventually sent me a corrected one, but it was months later. if i wasn't payin attention, i might not have noticed anyway...

On the "salvage" part of the equation....

It's real easy for a car to get a salvage title these days. The cost of repairing an older car can EASILY exceed its book value.

This is particularly true of older cars.... even if the "enthusiast value" of the car is high.

For example... a 1990 Mustang 5.0 may be worth $4000 book value. You'll see some advertised for sale at $10,000 all modded out.. You'll find some good survivors for sale at $5500.

But... if the car gets hit requiring a frame pull, new bumper, radiator, condensor etc, the damages will quickly exceed the book value. So although the car is repairable, it will be totalled.

Point is... it doesn't take much to total a car and cause a salvage title.
So you may have a Vette that was really messed up, of you may have a Vette that was simply tapped in the rear.

A good bodyman can look at your car and tell you what happened. There are always small, seemingly insignificant signs that tell the story.

In the absence of evidence- don't assume the car was demolished.

I have two "totalled" cars and have no issues with the salvage titles. I'm enjoying them "as is". It will depend on the mind-set of the buyer if/when you decide to sell. However, if you paid a premium price for the Vette.... better to get the price adjusted now. You might not find a compassionate buyer later.

Good advice. I have also had 2 salvaged cars. Had an 89 5sp IROC that was the best all around car I ever owned. It ran under a fence and got totalled. I bought it for $1550, put about $300 in it, drove it 40K miles and 4 years and sold it for $1800. Never aligned, cold a/c, bose stereo, everything worked, etc. Just figure out what you got.

Thats a good point. Its hards to prove what the guy knew. The fact the he skipped the title (never told me), and turned around and sold it within 6 months of buying for a loss is a red flag.

thats all i would need to give the car back to him. also, I would suspect, pretty strong circumstancial evidence if the courts ever need to be involved.
I would have to think he ran into the same problem and decided not to title it himself.
the car will never appreciate near the rate a clean titled car would. when my 79 z28 was hit(it was a beautiful car) i had to take less from insurance just so they wouldnt total it(only $500 less) fender,door and rear quarter were opened up like a zipper and thats quite a repair they didnt want to pay for. I love the car enough and recognize if i hold it long enough ill get my money back out of it so im restoring it now.worth the loss...if title went salvage,the car would of been parted out.
the vette will take money to restore/maintain anyway,might as well have one that you can get the money you put in back out later (at least a good chunk of it anyway heh)

Thanks. I agree. I think he knows he is in some hot water and is willing to take it back provided I pay the return freight. I would be out $3K on a $13K car. A lot of money for a lesson learned especially when someone is trying to take advantage of you.

If he does not come around to more rationale thinking I now know that his home state has laws against selling cars without a dealer’s license while skipping titles. At the very least he will get to deal with the MVD enforcement folks and possibly the state tax authorities. If they believe that there is enough circumstantial evidence (as we do!) with the intent to commit fraud, then he could see the criminal side of the house as well.

If it's going to cost $3k to get out of it, I wouldn't hesitate. I understand it's $3000 that could have been spent better. Better to lose it now than much more later.

:iagree: Yeah, The Great State of Ohio is this way too, except when I brought my Silver '68 up from Georgia in April of '03 and had to get an Ohio title made for it, my "inspector" was an 18yr old girl that had only been employed there for 3 days :lol:

"This is a what year Corvette sir?" "A 1968 ma'am" "UH, can you show me where the VIN tag is???" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

3K to ship a car???????? where did you buy it from? you should be able to get a much better deal then that..

about $1350 each way (Passport)- he wants me to pay to ship it back plus absorb the intial cost to ship it out

no ffffing way....not on a misrepresented deal...(intentional or not)

amen

OK, so it looks like your car should have had a salvage title. Question, Does the car, after inspection, look like it is a salvaged car? Is there signs of repair work, signs that original parts were replaced with salvage or aftermarket replacement panels?

If the car truly looks like it is not a salvaged car; i.e. looks like it has never been repaired, then I'd think there's good reason to believe that somewhere in its past it was stolen and the VIN plate from a junked car was used to disguise the car's ancestry.

???????

Other than the NOM and 74 nose/rear (both of which I knew) the AZ inspector would not more specific. I had an expert look at it and it does not look like the frame was ever pulled. The car drives great. Its tough to say whether the mods were made by enthusist along the way (BB conversion not uncommon) or pieced together by a chop shop. As other member said it did not take much to total thses cars in the 80's since the values were lower.

I think I'm over the issue of the salvaged title..probably justified....I am trying to work out a settlement with the seller who is claiming ingnorance and therfore no responsiblity since he had a "clean" title from the seller before him..I don't know what I can prove but it just smells bad.

good ! just cause she's not a virgin doesn't mean she can't be a lot of fun....just have to get the price right.

ebay
 

that's why I don't buy cars or "expensive" things off of ebay unless it is a one of those large chains with a ebay auction site. I bet this happens all the time you just don't hear about it. Not to say there isn't honest things going on, but there are a LOT of screwy things going on on ebay.

Actually Ebay could be the saving grace on this while ordeal. I am waiting to hear back to see if I am covered under their protection program.

Don't hold your breath waiting on ebay.

I would be surprised if they were any help. More like shocked.

I have had over two hundred transactions on ebay. I bought a corvette clock last year. The seller received my money. I had my cancelled check. I sent the money the next day. He left me negative feedback.

The seller has now been kicked off ebay, and his account closed, but ebay says they can only remove negative feedback if I pay $20.00 and the seller has to agree to removing the feedback.

Good Luck........

I may have missed something along the way but this car is a '70 with a 74 front and rearend? The salvage title is a bummer and I see no reason why AZ DMV did what they did. But with the mods that have been done to it, the value of this car as a 1970 Numbers match is going to suffer and most likely will never be the same value as one that has chrome bumpers, so the title becomes less of an issue on the value side of things, unless you go back with chrome bumpers.

I would say if you like the car and can get cash back from the seller then enjoy the H*** out of it and don't look back. If the time comes to sell it, you never know who is going to be enamored with it and pay you what you want. :cheers:

i've never heard of them scratching out the vin tag. i have a 71 skylark that was rear ended and given a salvaged title. we got the inspection after the repairs were done and now it still has the original vin number only a salvaged title. they said you can clear the title if you do a ground up restoration on it.

this was the phoenix DMV.

Got the Check today- :thumbs: ebay's Fraud Protection program works!

good job...

awesome! did you keep the car and get partial reimbursement or send it back?

Here is one way to look at it. You paid $13,000 for it and are looking to get 50% back. So if you get $6,500 back you will have $6,500 in the car.

You could drive the car and enjoy it. When you want to get rid of it, the car is worth $6,500 or more in parts if you cut it up and part it out.

If you can get a full refund minus the shipping send it back, but only after he sends you the money. Have it wired to your bank so you know its there.

Glad to see you got some resolution.

By the way, which DMV station did that in the first place?

About a year ago I did a google search on CnV and some guy was complaining how they sold him a ZR1 (C4) with a clean AZ title but it came back salvaged from some other state. I sold those guys a car at Pomona Swap Meet and they didnt even start it up before they bought it. UNREAL!!!!!!!!

It was the station in Tempe on Broadway. In retrospect they probably did what they had to do. My vette mechanic confirmed their findings and said that he was surprised that they did not confiscate the car.

I kept the car and got a partial refund.

Ebay's insurance company cut the check. I agree the car is worth more in parts. The car runs great and is a lot of fun...

Wait a sec Lou,

Isn't the VIN in more than one place on the car?

Do they all match? You said your mech. confirmed the issues, what were they?

I'm moving to AZ in 3 months and now I'm getting nervous about my 76....

Yes it is and that was the issue- the VIN on the windshield frame did not match the major components. MVD enforcement will not give you the specifics

Most overtly the VIN was for a coupe and the car is a convertible. Best I can tell I only had to go through the more thorough inspection because it did not have a federal sticker. In AZ that is one of the criteria to move to a level II/III inspection which is performed at special MVD stations.