Worth Saving?
 

Hello all,

My dad purchased a 1978 C3 in the hopes of doing some 'moderate' wrench turning with me to get her up to speed. The car needed some things that only a shop could do, but the remaining items we felt we could do: (heater core, cap/rotor, interior, engine freshening).

Just to document everything, I had someone take pictures of the underside- very surprised by what I saw. Come to find out that there's a TON of rust on the frame, control arms, and just about everything (see attached pictures).

Given the extent of the rust, is it even worth trying to save this car? What would be involved with something like that?

You need to inspect it a lot closer it may be just surface rust. Next question would be how far are you willing to go, to clean it up right it will need the body removed and all the rubber replaced and anything else that needs repaired.

Could get very expensive.

Wouldn't that be up to your Dad? It's his car.

:thumbs:

Hi d,
That really looks like pretty typical rust for a car that's 37 years old.
You should determine the integrity of the certain parts of the frame that are vulnerable to debilitating rust and also look for signs of rust around the windshield frame and hinge pillars on the birdcage.
What you do about the rust visible in the pictures depends on how much work you want to do on the car.
Again, a frame with surface rust and rusty running gear isn't unusual. Many, many, restorations start out looking like your pictures.
Regards,
Alan

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Point of my asking is to get a second set of opinions so as to properly gauge what's involved in this and if it exceeds his (and my) skillset, budget, and available time.

...apart from my not wanting dear 'ol dad driving around in a car that's falling apart and unsafe, yeah- his decision.

JMO...If you have about $20,000 or so extra laying around it can be restored. Ask me how I know..lol

what Alan said plus inspect the frame where it kicks up in front of the rear wheels where the t-arms go into the frame, a notoriously rust/rot prone area

The pics you posted show fairly normal surface rust - not pretty, but nothing really structurally weak or unsafe. That doesn't mean it is not bad, you just have to look in the right places. Like Alan & redvetracr said, look at the frame - especially where it kicks up in front of the rear wheels. If that is OK, then the other common problem is in the bird cage (body cab frame). Check out the sticky at the top of the page "ten rules". If you keep on working on this car, one of the first things I would do, would be to change the catalytic converter for a modern version - or remove it if allowed in your area. That old style bead cat is extremely restrictive, and the scrap value for it's platinum will help offset the cost.

Hi d,
I don't see anything in the pictures that makes me think the car is unsafe to drive.
I also DON'T see anything that indicates you shouldn't continue on the course you've described.
If it turns out your dad and you enjoy the car you can then begin to consider what things you want to work on and at what pace.
Good Luck!
Regards,
Alan

As others have said, it looks pretty typical of an old Corvette. The real problem areas for rust, can't be seen in your pictures, so a little further investigation should to be done just to be sure. Looking at the condition of the floors, a common spot for rust on a 76-82, I'd think chances are good, that the car is pretty solid.

Check the ends of the frame at the kick ups, under the rear door jam. Also check the frame at the body mounts, especially around the number 4 mounts, behind the rear tires. A few other places to check are the windshield pillars, where they meet the cowl, the rocker area under the sill plates, and the door hinge pillars, where they meet the rockers. These are all typical Corvette rust areas.

What is the skill set for the two of you? Do you have shop space for this car? What budget do you have in mind? How much time do the two of you have? What do the two of you want to do with the car? Have a driver or restore it?

Why not have Dad join the forum?
:thumbs:

Look closely at where the body mounts are and the gussets (triangle shaped pieces that strengthen where the main outer frame rails attache to the cross sections. Also where the control arms in the rear connect for the usual weak spots. It is not difficult to lift the body off and blast the frame (have it dipped if possible to get the rust inside the rails) as you need to replace the mounts anyway.

Good luck!

Thanks for sharing the before and after photos, Alan- really beautiful work. We are trying to figure out how much work this is and gauge what we're willing to do. My concern revolves around damage that's debilitating, like you mentioned. I have more detailed pictures now; going to post them- they're shots of the rear end, some ladder fram cross members that look to be in bad shape, and body mount points. Would be interested in your opinion if on visual inspection these look to be 'normal-ish' given the cars age and/or if it's the kind of thing that makes the car a money hole. Also concerned about anything that makes the car unsafe to drive.

Thanks for replying. My skillset is very basic, and my dad's is better (more background knowledge), but in general we're both new to this. I'd say our intent was to give us both a bit of a challenge doing what work would could to preserve budget. Also wanted to get into some work that we've never done before and be proud of the result.

To be more specific- In terms of shop space, very limited and limited tools. For example- can easily handle replacing the heater core and fixing some interior dash issues (along with the other items I mentioned). Pulling apart a rear end and ensuring everything's done right? Fixing debilitating structural issues on a frame? I think that's outside our skillset which took me down the path of my original question of: 'is it worth saving'. When I asked that question I was thinking of two things: 1) Is the rust on the frame debilitating where restoration is impractical; or 2) Is this type of repair going to break the bank budget wise?

As far as budget goes, my back of the paper napkin estimate was about 10-12 grand to get the car up to reliable, safe, daily driver quality.

Corvette Pictures - body mounts
 

Not sure which body mount 1 and 2 are; so hoping someone with more experience could identify on sight. The others are definitely the body mounts rear of the wheels.

It's clear that all are going to have to come off and new rubbers put on. Looks difficult. However, the real question given comments I've read is this:

Surface rust, or debilitating rust?

Worth Saving - Rear End Pictures
 

These picture show the control arms and the bolts that connect the leafspring to the back of the control arm. I've also included some additional pictures of the entire rear end assembly.

My take on this is that the car needs a new rear end. Not sure based on what I'm seeing if it's worth doing. Is this debilitating rust or, is it more a matter of time and money?

Worth Saving - suspect areas
 

In these pics, I've identified areas that look like rust through or just areas of general concern. Same question - does anyone see anything that'd be a safety or cost prohibitive frame repair?

In your post #15, the first two pictures appear to be body mount #1. The cushions are shot, not surprising after 37 years, but the frame and mount area look solid.

The third and forth pics are the #4 mounts. The box on the body, containing the cage nut, is shot. This is pretty common, and not terribly difficult to replace. They're only riveted to the body, and easy enough to replace, for someone with some automotive skills. More importantly, the frame portion of the #4 mounts, look to be in good shape.

I don't see anything of concern in post #16. The brake hoses and trailing arm brake lines, look to be fairly new. Even the rear spring cushions, look to be in good condition, for their age. The rear crossmember cushions are showing some age, but I've seen much worse.

The only thing that might need a closer look, is the condition of the trailing arms. The arms get rusty inside and get weak. In doing an old Corvette over, you really should have the rear wheel bearing assemblies rebuilt, at which time the rebuilder will refinish or replace the arms.

In post #17, I can see that the brake hoses, front sway bar links, radiator hoses, power steering hoses and slave cylinder have all been recently replaced. Obviously, the pan has been dropped and the pan gasket replaced too.

The black spot circled in red, just looks like a clump of grease on the crossmember to me? Even the rear end pinion bushing, looks to be in good shape. Again, the floors look very good, not something you would expect to see in a car that would otherwise have series rust issues.

Pictures lie, and there's no way of knowing how solid the frame is, just from looking at pictures. If you or your mechanic, aren't comfortable checking the frame, than you should get someone more familiar with Corvettes to inspect it. There are plenty of knowledgeable Corvette people around the Country, many on this Forum. Some will look at it for free, as a favor or friend, while others may charge a fee. Either way, if your still not comfortable with what your looking at, then reach out to someone who can inspect it properly for you.

Where are you located, maybe someone here will step up and volunteer to look at it for you. :thumbs:

Thanks for the insight. Completely agree that pictures lie- had a friend look at it and his reaction was much worse based on what he saw in person.

The car is now in NW Indiana; Crown Point. I'd love to have someone who knows C3 Corvettes to look at it in person. I'm currently in Texas, which is making this a bit more difficult.

Nothing that I've seen so far scares me, it's been shown some love as far as the brakes go. Members here have had a lot less to start with. Decide what you want to do, get a game plan. Make it stop, make it turn, make it go, good luck.

Time. It will take a lot if you want to make it look like Alan's. But you get to spend it all working with your Dad! And that is priceless.

Skillset. You will undoubtedly expand it. There are great youtube videos, great threads here on the forum. Volumes of expert advice, been there-done that experience here on the forum as well.

Tools. You have a great reason to get all the tools you ever wanted!!! Check Craigslist and yardsales for deals on older, better quality tools. Lots of guys getting older, don't work on cars anymore, downsizing, and their sons/family live far away or aren't interested in car stuff. Also, occasional shop closing or relocating. Don't forget to check the business opportunities sections.

Space. Always a problem. I got a portable garage, 10x20', heavy duty canopy with sides and zip-open door, on sale at Tractor Supply for $199. I was able to do a lot of work outside, under cover, turned garage bay into a large workbench with three 16' long 2x8's and 4 saw horses. If you don't get heavy snowfalls, you could leave it up year-round. Or take a couple weekends and build that nice big storage shed your dad has probably been wanting!

Money. You can get a lot accomplished with $12k. Then save up for the beautiful paint job you will want on her! For instance, I got a lift, stands, transmission jack, benchtop sandblast cabinet, radiator, carburetor, monospring, trailing arms, entire power steering setup, calipers, lots of other parts, bolts, gaskets, supplies, etc. And haven't spent more than $8000, yet!

Life. Gets in the way. Work, holidays, commitments, emergencies, other family stuff.

That is how I have been getting it done/ not done. I got what I thought was a great car. Then everything started leaking. Ended up pulling radiator, water pump, carburetor, exhaust manifold, entire power steering system, front wheel bearings, valve cover gaskets, rear main seal, oil pan gasket, transmission seals, bushings and gaskets(3 times, long story), differential pinion seal, diff cover gasket, diff side yoke seals and bearings, new trailing arms rear crossmember bushings, rear strut rod bushings, had to weld a repair on drivers side rear kick up panel where trailing arm attaches, brake hoses, all 4 calipers, and more! I was on a roll until last November, when weather, and then life got in the way. Family emergency, home heating system went out, back injury, foot injury(neither corvette related!), home plumbing and electrical issues. Haven't been able to get her finished up yet, but now I am back to getting a little weekly work done. But by myself.

Don't sell yourselves short. You can do it. And you get to do it with your dad! I am envious!

I'm no Knute Rockne, but there's a little motivational speech for you!

Good luck and enjoy the project!

Excellent post. The time spent with Dad cannot be replaced at any amount of $. These are posts that really appeal.:thumbs:

This may turn into one of those projects.
What I mean by that is, well, if were going to replace the body mounts, we might as well take the frame off, we might as well take it apart and sanblast and powder coat it. Well, if we do that, we might as well beef up the suspension, well, if we do that, we might as well do the motor while its easy to get to.
Mine ended up that way and I wish my Dad had your enthusium for a project like yours does. You guys will be happy you did it. Just make a plan and stick to the plan, mostly.

Thanks for taking the time to write this up. Great story and YES- very motivational. My #1 reason for wanting to do this is to have a vehicle I turned wrenches on with my Dad. #2 reason- I absolutely love this generation Corvette. I definitely want to look back at the car, be proud of it and ensure it represents well.

BIG THANKS to all who took time to comment on our situation. Looking forward to more interactions with the community!

looking at the pictures.. this is not a car one should put 5000 into for paint or 3000 into for engine rebuild etc... but you could do a couple of thousand into piece by piece to get it rolling... exhaust, a good detailing, some brakes, and bushing stuff...

if you try taking the body off then most of the bolts will break and you will quickly get way over your head...

Thanks Joe. As I've been doing my research and considering the input provided here, I've come to a similar conclusion. As one member quoted- Got $20K lying around you're not doing anything with?

Thanks for the input.

This page is from Vette magazine from 2013. gives an idea of the values then. See notes on condition in grey at bottom of page.
I also have free app on my iPhone called Corvette DNA which has values for all Corvettes. You can also see some '78s for sale here on the forum to get an idea of values or worth. That being said, willing buyer--willing seller makes the market price.

I spent about $3600 on a lift and other equipment and tools, but it is amazing what guys have accomplished with only floor jacks and stands! and about $3700 on new and used parts, bolts, gaskets, hoses, and supplies. I live in Virginia, so when a bolt breaks or I need a part, if Zip has it for a reasonable price, it arrives tomorrow on the 12:30 UPS truck.

I doubt I will ever get the money out of mine that I continue to put into it. But it is enjoyable. My grandson is 3-1/2. He loves the car because it is red. And he loves to sit in it. I hope he continues to be interested in it, and stays close by. They are talking about moving to Florida. My dad is 83, suffered a severe stroke 8 years ago, lives 250 miles away. I would have loved to work on this car with him. He had been a mechanic since he was 7 with his dad. I worked with him growing up in the 70s and would love to pass on the skills and knowledge to my grandson.

I don't know how the rest of the car looks, but maybe, sell it and use your extra 10-12k budget to get one that will need less work? There are a couple '78s, a pace car and a silver anniversay that looked pretty nice on the for sale section. I think they made over 46,000 Corvettes in '78.
Whatever you decide, there is a veritable library of Congress' worth of knowledge, expertise, and experience on this forum alone.



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My dad and I going for a ride, Labor Day 2013.



New trailing arms, rebuilt diff, rear suspension, etc.