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Originally Posted by Vettebuyer6369
(Post 1596794901)
While that is true for midyears in general, I think it’s fair to acknowledge trying to fool people by adding “factory” AC is a tougher trick that you make it sound on a ‘63. There were only 278 AC 63s originally, and every one that shows up on a show field is looked at sideways. People immediately check the VIN to see if it falls in the right range and look for the 1963 only AC parts that are not reproduced and are very, very difficult to find.
Anything can be faked, but adding AC on a ‘63 while trying to pass it off as original is not an easy task and all the parts are not at swap meets. |
Originally Posted by Vettebuyer6369
(Post 1596794901)
Anything can be faked, but adding AC on a ‘63 while trying to pass it off as original is not an easy task..........
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Originally Posted by Brian VH McHale
(Post 1596792251)
Or buy a factory A/C car. :cheers:
Good idea there Rian. You have just raised the asking price of factory AC cars 30%!:D |
Originally Posted by Rich Yanulis
(Post 1596795111)
So, did the value of those 278 REAL Cars just increase substantially?
I’m not sure how cold it gets in an original AC car though. :D |
Originally Posted by Rich Yanulis
(Post 1596795111)
So, did the value of those 278 REAL Cars just increase substantially?
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The NCRS has taken the same stance with added side exhaust. If detected, and there's a long list of items checked, then it's a full deduct (although not as severe as 300 pts). I have been an NCRS member since 83, have Top Flighted and Duntoved more than 1 car. It does seem that the "circle of judges brotherhood" cars get more of a pass than a new guy showing up for the first time. I complained numerous times about judging inconsistencies. How can my 67 400 hp engine compartment get ZERO deducts at one Regional meet, then lose 100 pts at the next Regional meet 3 months later?? Then lose only 10 pts at the National? Judges tend to "judge" to THEIR knowledge and perception which is often outside of the Judging Guide. I dropped out for 10 yrs because of the judging "politics" and just now came back hoping the org had changed or the problem had "aged out". it sounds like they finally put all the judges in one room and are all in "one accord". I'll take consistency over inconsistency if I know what the deduct is before I spend the money to get the car there.
PS. They do judge "restoration" motors harshly (if detected). |
Originally Posted by MikeM
(Post 1596795125)
Add on AC buggers up the appearance of a car a lot more than that little square inch of cast iron on the front of the block.
Good idea there Rian. You have just raised the asking price of factory AC cars 30%!:D |
2 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by Frankie the Fink
(Post 1596794408)
Then that's what the NCRS should do instead of dicking around pretending to be inclusive by levying stupefying point deductions to a popular modification.
YOU should be thankful people like me still engage in the hobby (11 year NCRS member and occasional judge) rather than abandoning it entirely keeping our horrid, modified cars off the judging circuit. |
Originally Posted by 65vette396
(Post 1596795370)
The NCRS has taken the same stance with added side exhaust. If detected, and there's a long list of items checked, then it's a full deduct (although not as severe as 300 pts). I have been an NCRS member since 83, have Top Flighted and Duntoved more than 1 car. It does seem that the "circle of judges brotherhood" cars get more of a pass than a new guy showing up for the first time. I complained numerous times about judging inconsistencies. How can my 67 400 hp engine compartment get ZERO deducts at one Regional meet, then lose 100 pts at the next Regional meet 3 months later?? Then lose only 10 pts at the National? Judges tend to "judge" to THEIR knowledge and perception which is often outside of the Judging Guide. I dropped out for 10 yrs because of the judging "politics" and just now came back hoping the org had changed or the problem had "aged out". it sounds like they finally put all the judges in one room and are all in "one accord". I'll take consistency over inconsistency if I know what the deduct is before I spend the money to get the car there.
PS. They do judge "restoration" motors harshly (if detected). |
simple solution, have an aftermarket A/C class. This way everyone starts on an equal basis. Perfect car otherwise would still be the goal.
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Going forward a high scoring second flight car with added A/C will be well understood and nothing to be ashamed of. JMHO
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I would think the hit of 300 pts would actually be more than dropping in a LS motor.
Moral of the story is play by there rules, if your car is modified don't you go thru the judging process to learn what else is incorrect? |
Originally Posted by mike coletta
(Post 1596794678)
Don't be so hard on yourself Frank. It is what it is!! Your description of "going to the ball" is perfect. I have a lot of respect for the NCRS, and what that organization, and it's members, provide to the hobby. If you don't want to play that game, then don't. I commend them for fixing the "consistency" issue as pertains to add on AC. The "valuation" of those points, IMO, is fair. I now know the rules, the amount of the deduct, and I can choose to get judged, or not get judged......my call. It will never be a perfect system, but it CAN be a consistent system.
Now, my "I told you so".......If you would have let me bring your car to the "dark side", you would have received NO deducts for your vintage air in the "concours class" judging, and your car would have been worth at least twice the money. |
Out of curiosity, wonder what the point deduction would be with NCRS, if you had a factory air car, without the compressor and brackets, in other words missing the component? My '64 is a hell'va lot easier to tune up, and weighs 45lbs less!
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Originally Posted by MikeM
(Post 1596795125)
Add on AC buggers up the appearance of a car a lot more than that little square inch of cast iron on the front of the block.
Good idea there Rian. You have just raised the asking price of factory AC cars 30%!:D |
1 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by Brian VH McHale
(Post 1596795675)
Going forward a high scoring second flight car with added A/C will be well understood and nothing to be ashamed of. JMHO
I hope my rather spotty experience with the Vintage Air scoring somehow contributed to the NCRS moving forward with standardizing the judging. Just a bit taken aback that a modification formerly taking hits from 12 to 45 (70 in my case) points has suddenly become a 300 pt minimum deduction... I didn't see that coming but so be it... :flag: |
Originally Posted by firstgear
(Post 1596795692)
The dark side isnt bad once you see the light! :D
My cars have just been so original I can't bring myself to go that far...:D |
Originally Posted by Chuck Gongloff
(Post 1596791903)
:D That's not quite true. I can't get the chart to adjudicate, so you'll have to follow the lines.
2. DRIVEN MILEAGE POINTS To encourage driving, any car entered in Flight Judging which is driven by the owner or a family member to an event is eligible to receive additional points based on miles driven to the event so long as the car receives a minimum 75.0 net score. Mileage points are limited to 10% of net scoring. Points are calculated using the actual mileage driven to the event as reported on the Judging Summary sheet by the owner. This mileage is multiplied by 1 % (.01). Using this number, and not rounding up, figures beyond the tenths place are dropped and the result is added to the net score to arrive at the final Grand Total Score, Grand Total cannot exceed 100. For example, a car driven 37 miles to an event would have .3 added; while a car driven 375 miles would have 3.7 points added. Some calculated examples follow: Net Score Mileage Mileage Points Grand Total 87.8 435 4.3 92.1 87.8 1135 8.7(10%Max.) 96.5 93.8 50 0.5 94.3 72.8 138 0.0 (Under 75.0) 72.8 98.7 299 2.9 100 96.1 9 0.0 (.09) 96.1 Very detailed. I got 100% at a Mid Atlantic regional on a 96 point car. Drove 450 miles. Many years ago now. John |
So, if I understand this correctly, a deduction of 300 points out of a total of 4500 possible points is roughly 0.07 (actually 0.0666666) percent.
So the deduction for add-on A/C is less than 1%. Assuming the rest of the car is perfect (and we know that really never happens), the possible score with this situation is 99.3%. Is my math correct? 99.3% is still a Top Flight car. I am actually surprised that the penalty is not higher. Something like a point deduction of 1% (i.e. 450 points for a C2) AND a stipulation that the car cannot receive an award higher than a Second Flight. I don't have to like the decision, or the point penalty, but at least there is now a consistent policy for this issue. |
No, 300/4500= 6.7%
Max you could get is 93.3% if everything else is 100%. Doug
Originally Posted by jv04
(Post 1596796124)
So, if I understand this correctly, a deduction of 300 points out of a total of 4500 possible points is roughly 0.07 (actually 0.0666666) percent.
So the deduction for add-on A/C is less than 1%. Assuming the rest of the car is perfect (and we know that really never happens), the possible score with this situation is 99.3%. Is my math correct? 99.3% is still a Top Flight car. I am actually surprised that the penalty is not higher. Something like a point deduction of 1% (i.e. 450 points for a C2) AND a stipulation that the car cannot receive an award higher than a Second Flight. I don't have to like the decision, or the point penalty, but at least there is now a consistent policy for this issue. |
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