Porsche guy needs convincing.
 

Ok. I admit it's a first world spoiled old guy problem, but I race in PCA with an '04 Boxster and own a Cayman R, BUT I'm thinking it's time to try something from the good 'ole US of A and buy myself a ZR1. First problem is getting in line, BUT I'm really worried I won't like it 'cuz I'm a mid-engine snob. Has anyone out there driven a ZR1 AND a Porsche that can speak to the relative behavior of this American Super Car?

I think you should wait for the C8 honestly.

I think the ZR1 is the most badass FE manual trans, rear engine car ever built and will probably retain that title from here on out as cars become more digital/ AWD/ DCT/ etc...

However good it's lap times are though, it does it thru brute strength not finesse.

Even though the C8 Z51 will almost certainly be slower around a track than the C7 ZR1, I don't think driving dynamics are going to be comparable.

Good luck!


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...2be10689e2.jpg

Your cayman weighs 500-600 lbs less than ZR1. As I was saying in the other C&D thread, you cant really cheat the law of physics by adding more power. I honestly dont think you can enjoy this car as much as you enjoy your cayman. I drove several caymans, they are toy cars - very tossable. I also drove 4 Z06s and they are not tossable at all. Very hard to control at limit (or even close to it). Not forgiving once you lose the control. You could give the cayman to a person (example my wife) who never drove a car in auto cross or track and she could probably manage it in the first lap close to the limit (her limit not yours of course). Whereas with ZR1 or even Z06, there is no way, she would just loose it in the second turn and hit the wall.

I'm also going to add right here and now that the C8 is going to out Porsche, Porsche, when it comes to driving dynamics. Chevrolet is going to have a $75K ME car that will run circles around anything from Porsche that you can buy new for under $200K, and it's going to be reliable and inexpensive to be serviced as well.

You'll also be able to check your own oil but I digress....

I was actually looking for a used Porsche and after I drove a very nice 928 i thought, "a Corvette is similar to this car and I can buy a new one for less."

So I drove one and liked it better than the Porsche.

You probably are not going to be able to test drive a ZR1, but you should be able to test drive a Z06 or at least a GS. That should give you an indication of whether or not you'll be able to adjust to the switch.

As far as the Corvette relying on brute power in order to lay down these Super Car beating times, I just don't think this is true; magazines have been staging these comparison tests among a gaggle of cars for a while now and I started noticing the the C6 Z06 was frequently beating super-high end exotics on road courses despite having a manual transmission and one of if not the slowest acceleration tests of the bunch.

That can mean only one thing: the Vette was outhandling the McLaren and the Ferrari and whatever else they were throwing at it.

Despite the 'Ring lap times Porsche put down, I think the ZR1's lap at VIR is more representative of where the car is in the performance car universe beating the $ Half Million Ford GT by over a second.

I have driven the Porsche on the Track and have a 2019 GS. Both are amazing cars. Porsche 911 S was very quick in the turns and the car was very intuitive around the track. It stuck like clue. GS is very strong, but not as fast out of the turn IMO. But the difference is minimal. I think the new C8 will be north of $75K, those thinking it starts at that price are fooling themselves. It will be the base model as well. Two years later, maybe a GS and that will be north of $100K. Only downside is NO Manual Trans for the C8. At least Porsche is keeping it alive. GL

So what are the respective lap times?

Here's a link to one of Poor-sha's threads when he's driving his C7 Z06.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...3-cup-car.html

Here's the Youtube link in the thread...

You Tube

See the predator's wee snack start at about 14:05...ummm, yummy!

Wow! Thanks guys for the awesome input!!

I have driven C7s. I am fortunate in that I am a member of the Lime Rock Driver's Club and have driven a Z06 on track. Honestly, I don't care for the Z06 handling. What I'm wondering is whether the ZR1 represents a true leap in handling. The reviews seem to indicate that the down force is the big difference. Is it possible the ZR1 is close to the Porsche Cayman in terms of "nimbleness" because of the down force generators?? How different is the ZR1 from the Z06?

I don't mean to imply that a Corvette is not as fast around a track as any comparable Porsche as that just wouldn't be emperically true.

The issue is driving dynamics, actually more important if you aren't racing.

The ZR1 is a 680 rwhp 3700# brute. The Cayman R is comparably a ballerina. Making due with half the power not nearly the mechanical grip while giving the driver tremendous satisfaction while turning notably slower lap times.

The Z51/ GS is the sweet spot for a track car in the C7. I get that the ZR1 is much faster, but that isn't the point.

I suspect the track pack 400 rwhp C8 that weighs 3200# is going to be the 'driver's car' in the new Vette. Jmho.

I think the posts below are getting on the same thing... you're currently driving a 300 hp 3000 lb car... it makes sense why you wouldn't like the Z06 (and the ZR1 while better will not be different enuogh). Frankly, you're dring a 10:1 lb per hp car and getting into a 6:1 lb per hp car... the corvette will need more brake, and will accelerate significantly quicker. Have you considered if not the GS alternative, staying with mid/rear engine and going to a GT3?

Agree completely!

Echo these thoughts, with the exception of the C8 weighing 3200lbs... I for one would LOVE THIS... but the 'early' narratives have been stating the C8 will weigh 200 more lbs than the C7 chassis. (remains to be seen).

Best Regards,
Dave

Maybe what you need to do is cough up the cash and just go to Spring Mountain and drive the ZR1 for 2-3 days and make your own decision. I'm not saying this to be a jerk, it's just I myself would not take the word of someone else on the internet to make a $150,000 decisions for me as they may believe the Z06 and ZR1 are different for different reasons.

It's possible you will find someone with a ZR1 willing to let you take it out for a day and good luck with that approach.

Unfortunately you cannot take the ZR1 school at Spring Mountain without being a ZR1 owner.
S.

Well now I guess he will have to find someone willing to track their car or wait for SM to come to their senses and let others pay for the class :)

That's what the Nurburgring Ring time is for! ;)
 

:willy:

I am a Porsche guy at heart, raced PCA in a 911, chief HPDE instructor ... My Z06 is very fast, sounds awesome, has torque and is light. That said, the fit and finish pretty much suck, and you'll need to put more $$ into making it track ready. Porsche over engineers, Chevy mass produces to save a dime. I still have concerns about long term ownership, every time I track it, I find more things that need $$. I will eat tires/brakes like a mad man, but that comes with more speed. This will make your cayman feel like Prius. My biggest fear is as the G meter goes up even a dry sump from Chevy is inadequate and then it goes boom. You'll never have that fear with a Porsche.

I run Lime Rock too. Where are you located?

Sorry, you can't bring a C6 Z06 into this discussion or our local hall monitor, Jimmyb, will get all upset with you.

I have owned 12 corvette's, and just got my 3rd Porsche, we are waiting for a coupe and a convertible ZR1, I have a 2017 Z06/Z07, and a 2017 911 turbo s. Love my vette's, they are the best performance for the money PERIOD, of course the ZR1 is pushing that with a sticker price of 40k more than my Z06. Can't say anything bad about my Porsche except that the price is insane, the car is too. I don't track my cars, but many here do, and some are Porsche and Vette owners too

ZR1 or a Porsche, yes a first world problem
 

Consider going to Las Vegas, and visit Exotic Racing. You could get some laps in a Z06 and likely a ZR1 soon, and drive a Porsche on the same track the same day. And take your wife to a show in Vegas:rock:

If you like Porsche get a new GT3RS it’s a Great track car.

I don't know what got into me; I beg for forgiveness.

To the OP: I think you are looking for something that is dynamically impossible. You want the front engine, steam roller tired ZR1 to feel like your Cayman? That's virtually impossible. Just like Lotus drivers probably think the Cayman feels truck-like. But while feeling comparatively like a truck, the ZR1 will be many seconds ahead of the Cayman on probably any track you choose.

If you need your car to feel like a Cayman, then you'd better stick with the Cayman.

no dry sump chevy has gone boom...that I know off, since it has been in the C6 and C7...I think the first iteration (06-09) did have an issue on right turns at 1G but that was fixed. Pretty certain the C7ZR1 isn't gonna have any problems there either... Far as over engineering, well, GM did that too on this and the past one...find me another car where you can literally side step the clutch at 4000 rpm under launch control on a 650hp+ car with a warranty that won't cost you 200 grand...there is over engineering in chevy too, but I appreciate the fit and finish comment since I also own two Porsche cars and 2 Chevys... though I track both chevy and Porsche just as much, and they have been very reliable to date... your experience may vary I suppose :)

Nah, after the guy brought up the 928, I figured even you couldn't go THAT far back in time.

Small correction to your post. The 2006, 2007 and the first half(approximately) of the 2008's had 8 quart reservoirs and the last half (approximately) of the 2008's had a 8.5 quart capacity.

ALL the 2009's(and later) had a 10.5 quart capacity.

The first C7's had a 10.3 quart capacity, but GM cut that back to 9.8 quart capacity as the PCV was sucking oil out of the reservoir.

Was that 928 BC or 928 AD?

Last year the 928 was produced was 1995. Maybe you can't remember that far back in time, but I can.

I'm in Pound Ridge, NY. Which clubs do you use??

I put in an internet request for the ZR1-1ZR A8 to 3 local dealers using the "Build Your Own" Chevy website and said I was willing to wait until Spring next year but wasn't willing to pay over MSRP . . . we'll see :D

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...ec03d7a60.jpeg

Phoenix racing told me all C6Zs can go boom if they are well set up on slicks.

He told me the wet sump LS3s will lose oil pressure on Hoosiers, but not R888s.

I have a wet sump LS3 with R888rs and the Improved Racing set up which appears to be enough. I'll never need more tire than the R888r.

Would you believe GM calls me for new product testing? No... :hide:

GM is already producing world class handling cars, for a fraction of the cost of Porsche products.

As long as GM remains stable in this regard (as in no downgrade in performance), yet they have the expected improvements that a ME engine layout naturally provides, it's common sense really that they will have a superior automobile.

I mean look at what a ZL1 Camaro can do to the world's best euro sports cars right now. The fact is that although GM is certainly remaining within a pre-determined budget, they have economies of scale and depth of talent that few other car company possess.

I used to attend quite a few PCA driving events with both my Vette and my Camaro, because I'm a mediocre driver and need lots of practice. They seemed to accept being beaten by the Vette, but getting beaten by a Camaro (a 4th gen model Z28, stock) was beyond the pale. I could see them looking at my car probably thinking, "Jeez, I wouldn't even buy one of these for my kid."

You're talkin' some serious smack thee boy :D

Seriously though I'm a member of the Lime Rock Driver's Club, and we have "vettes and Camaros galore try a run on the track, but Porsches beat them by a mile. Look it up. 'vettes and Camaros do 58 seconds at best at Lime Rock but Porsches pull 53s on a regular basis.

Now, having said that I will admit the ZR1 may be the game changer and THAT is why I joined this forum and put in an order for a ZR1.

If the only track you run is Lime Rock, totally agree, handling is 90% of the focus and HP is secondary, if you run run VIR, Watkins, Road Atlanta, getting passed every lap when your car tops out at 140mph gets old. That is why I went to the C6Z06, HP/$$ ratio. I do own a early C6Z06, thus my dry sump fears, I know it is a 10 year old car and it was a $32K buy with 27K miles, but that generation of Z06 has issues that need to be addressed if tracked. That being said it is really quick and more fun to drive around town.

Feel lucky you in United States because in Brazil there will never be any ZR1s for sale. Danger factors not worth the hassle driving.

I cant believe Youtube restricts video based on location, we in N Korea here?

Like another said Chevrolet is finally is producing world class cars for a fraction of the cost of Porsche. Being an American today and being patriotic is more important than ever before. Never in my life will Porsche be in my garage, never. Why buy a product from a country who makes vulgar parade floats depicting out president as a sexual freak screwing the statue of liberty. Buy American and support American values and companies.

Smooth driving
 

This guy is smooth and a good driver

nasa / pcy

I'm good friends with Sean and have ridden with him on track a few times. Trust me when I say: smooth isn't a word I'd use. He's had to emergency pit-in a few times so that I didn't ... uh ... decorate the interior of his car.

Porsche afficianado considering a Corvette
 

A couple of years ago I was interested in getting a high performance car to take to the track. Last true performance car was 1972 Lotus Europa. Best handling car in its category at that time in my opinion. Years of life went by.....


I wanted something similar, but with more power.

Reading Road and Track PCOTY 2017:



"Without a doubt, the Lotus is the best pure driver's car in the group. It's enough to make me overlook the aftermarket-style stereo and the somewhat casual manner in which the interior has been assembled from commercially available parts. I worry, however, that the rest of my compatriots won't feel the same.


The Evora is one of just two cars here with a clutch pedal. The other is the Corvette Grand Sport. It would be a mistake to characterize it as a bigger, faster Evora; Smith says of the pair that "the Evora is the only real car here, in the traditional analog sense. All the rest are machines. Except the Corvette, which is a machine that does a damn good impression of a car. Every aspect of the Corvette is computer-controlled, yet it's done so well that it feels transparent."


That R&T would even hint at a Corvette having some Lotusness in it was enough for me to bite. I wanted more power so I got the Z06. Ordered it the way I wanted it for the track. Never even sat in one at the dealer. The Z has not disappointed. The handling is obviously heavier, but still crisp (and I ran it on slicks last weekend and OMG). Yes it's power demands respect. "Raquel" is a no nonsense instructor. Do something stupid and you get slapped quickly. But then, usually, the nannies bail you out. (I have not driven her with all the nannies off. Driving in the rain last weekend I found I was able to defeat the wet mode/ABS and slide off the track anyway.....). So I enjoy the challenge the car poses as I learn to drive better. I have no doubt that, at age 65, I will not live long enough to get bored with this car.


The bottom line is, unless you earn your livelihood racing, get the car that makes you happy.:rock:

Sorry, but the fastest car does not always win, right? There is one additional element, the driver, so while I am not the world's best driver, these guys in their fast Porsches were even worse. The same thing frequently happened when I took the Camaro to Corvette events and I beat most of the Corvettes. The single-marque clubs don't usually have the best drivers, so this sometimes results in easy pickings.

I can remember a new guy showing up at a local autocross and getting thoroughly spanked by one of our geriatric guys driving a car which, in most tests, was considerably slower than the new kid's car. He just couldn't understand how this was happening and I actually felt sorry for him.

You had a stereo in your Lotus? Why would you do that? Must have added 5 pounds at least and you can't hear it unless you're parked.

Oh, my mistake: you were quoting the article.

The lack of torque in most Porsche engines is a deal killer after you've experienced the shove of the LS/LT engines. The only Porsche I'd consider passable and would be a replacement for my C7Z is a 2018 GT3 with the manual transmission. Drove my friend's and it's phenomenal. But all the little Cayman/Boxster variants would be an absolute bore after tracking a Z06.

Had the ZR1 at Road America Saturday. Lots of BMW and 911 varieties out there as well.
It all depends what you are used to. The ZR1 is a heavy car and has very nice handling. I would not think it as nimble as a Caymen. It also has gobs of power. The 911 Turbo guys were used to being the fastest on the straights, but now had to point the ZR1 buy. Very few cars out there could keep up with the ZR1 in corners and no one could touch the braking ability. Hope this helps.

Europa
 

It's OK. I didn't because of what you said:D

Since you have driven the Z06 on track the ZR1's handling will not be too much different. A FE 755 horsepower Corvette is a different animal on course compared to your Cayman. A 991.1 GT3 used or a new 991.2 may be more along the lines of what you are looking for because of the car's characteristics. Switching to a FE car means switching up lines, braking points, different trail braking, left foot braking is a tad more nerve-racking, and you would have a different feel mid-corner as well with the front engine layout. Maybe the jump would be fun, learning to track something new (I guess, I do not know what you have tracked).

I come from tracking mustangs and have buddies who have tracked a ton of mid-engine cars and my dad used to run a 914 with the PCA. We have discussed differences from the layouts in depth.

*Also, take what I say with a grain of salt as Corvette's are front-mid engine with near 50/50 weight distribution and my experience is with mustangs (sorry guys). I plan to do a few track events in my Z but I still have my mustang dedicated track car.

Did you get any lap.times?

OP, it really comes down to what you are looking for but let me add my experience. For the most part, the only cars I've really tracked in anger were Corvettes (C6Z, C7 Z51, C7 Z06, C7 Z07, and soon to be C7 ZR1). However, I did own for close to a decade a 986 S that had the 997 3.8L motor in it which was a hoot to drive on the street and I always drove it with everything off. I also had the opportunity to do a few hot laps in a student's Audi R8 so I have a little ME track experience.

Going from a small ME car to a ZR1 is definitely going to be different but my question for you is do you want different? You're going to have a lot more power and be carrying a lot more speed with the ZR1. It'll give you an opportunity to get comfortable with putting that power down as well as carrying what I would expect to be more speed mid-corner.

From a driving style the nice thing about the 986 was that it was very easy to rotate and to control ridiculous slip angles through a corner. I could kick the backend out and just hold it there as long as I liked it whereas with the Corvette it is more difficult to stay ahead of the rotation due to the higher mass at both ends. You can do it but there is less margin for error in your reactions. In the R8 on track I found that I had to do a lot more trail braking to get the front end to grip going in to the corner because there was no mass and relatively small tired up front. Whereas with the Corvette the trail braking is a lot more gentle and I am just fine tuning the balance to adjust my line rather than a necessary part of getting down to the apex. I hope this makes sense.

On track I'm expecting the ZR1 to just more more of Z06 so if you can find a friend or a student who will let you do a few laps in their Z06 that will give you a feel for the platform. Personally, I love the C7 platform on track and I am actually not excited about the coming ME because of the change in driving dynamics. Like you, I'm just used to what I know.

I read somewhere that if you enjoy road coursing a Miata then you're going to love the ZR1.

Haven't driven a C7ZR1, but I have tracked a Cayman.

I've also tracked a C7 Z51 manual, C7 Z51 auto, C7 Z06 manual, C7 Z06 auto, and a GS. I've tracked many other cars in addition to the various C7 variants.

Comparing the Cayman to ANY of the C7 variants, the most notable difference is the lack of torque in the cayman. That difference FAR out weighs any other difference between the cars.

One more thing. If you do get a chance to drive a Z06 or a ZR1 on track it is important that you drive one that is properly aligned/setup. The right alignment makes a huge difference in the way the C7 feels on track so if you end up driving one with a bad alignment it will not be a good reflection on how great these cars can be.

Buy American Made. Why buy some German piece of shit when Germany is biased against the United States? I have German expat friends. All they do is talk shit about how lazy, fat and dumb American people are.

Fuck Germany and Europe.

Shitty EU systems set up against Americans who live there.

About time the United States reciprocated against countries who have rigged systems against us there.

Americans first finally.

ZR1 is in another class today. Porsche cannot compete.

Forgive my ignorance; I'm not a track savvy person. Are ME cars taking a later apex to carry over speed, vs. the Vette relying on trail-braking early and picking an early apex to power out of a turn?


Taking in impressions of the track folks, it seems the Vette powers out of a turn more aggressively and the trick is to tame the rear waggle; do the ME and RE cars get light on the front (most seem to have much narrower front tire width vs. the Corvette)?

No. A later Apex does not carry more speed in the beginning part of the corner. Typically big power cars lend themselves to taking a later Apex so the wheel can be straightened and power can be added off corner.

In reality if you want to go fast you need to Apex as early as you can carrying as much speed as possible down to the Apex unwind a wheel as early as possible use the entire track and go back Full Throttle as quickly as possible. Does not matter what kind of car you're in.

A Corvette comes off the corner less aggressively because it does not have as much traction typically as a mid-engine or rear engine car. You will often times find yourself dealing with more oversteer in a Corvette as compared to the other cars. That's why so many people like the nanny's that the Corvette has now because it makes them easier to drive.

I'm not sure I'm understanding the brake earlier at a higher speed part? Most often times when you brake earlier you are going slower then when you stay on the gas longer and Brake later.

Big power cars that have less than desirable handling characteristics typically benefit from a late Apex style of driving a corner. Corvettes are not really that.

The fastest guys in the country trail brake them in the first part of the corner carrying big speed all the way to the Apex. Then as early as they can carrying as much speed as they can go back to throttle as early as possible and flat as early as possible. Tons of Speed is carried from the time they put on the brakes until the time they reach the Apex.

So the mantra seems to be "early in, early out", using momentum. The Corvette is a power car then? As such the momentum shift from the FE layout would lead to oversteer and a less controllable high speed exit as the weight shift to the rear is less pronounced?

Here is arguably on of the best driver's in the country in a C7Z. I think he has 8 national championships now. This is how you drive one quickly. Same principles will apply to the ZR1. Watch where he goes to the brakes and where he releases and adds power.

For performance reference on the lap time this is as quick as an SCCA GT2 car lap record at this track and he's doing it in a street car. I found another video of a Driver putting in fast laps in his 458 Challenge racing car and his lap times were comparable to this but his corner speeds are lower. I posted that one as well and a good ME VS FE comparison.

The ZR1 is going to be even badder.

In my C6Z against 911GT3's, I can carry more speed into the corners and at the apex. There's where I have to make up time. They can get on the power earlier and harder out of the corner with more rear end stability to due to the weight transfer.

People who "point n shoot" with vette's generally aren't fast. You need to carry speed into the corner and at the apex. This carry more speed and keep the car loaded up does make it more prone snap oversteer and such but that's just how it goes.

The LS engines had issues with long high G left hand turns. That is why C5 owners were told to run a quart over fill when tracking the car.

Early C6 Zs had the same problem but that went away when they increased the dry sump capacity by adding the side tank. Haven't heard of any C7s having the same issue and they have been tracked heavily since 2014. GM does recommend maintaining oil level at 10.3 quarts when using the cars on track.

I seriously doubt there is a similar issue to the early C6 Z. Besides it is rare to run on a track that has a long high G left hand turn.

Bill

The GS, Z06 & ZR1 can have their chassis/brakes/tires set up very similarly, so in slower corners where aero has little effect, their cornering speeds will be similar. However, the Z06 & ZR1 will attain higher speeds on the straights, so they will need to brake a bit earlier to bring their speed down to the same as the GS, assuming all the cars are under maximum/threshold braking with similar brakes.

The theory of late apexing is that a little speed is given up in the first part of the corner up to the apex, then the exit can be opened up more quickly as the steering is unwound & more throttle can be fed in earlier (compared with a geometrically symmetrical line through the corner), achieving a higher average speed over a much longer time/distance on the straight compared with the distance covered in the corner. This helps if 2 GS's are on the track, but as Poorsha pointed out, all the time he gained in his Z06 over the GS was mostly on the straights due to the extra power advantage. Where the ZR1 will show an advantage is in fast corners (100 mph up) as the downforce will allow higher cornering speeds compared with the Z06 & GS.

I'm not sure about trail braking, since this is done while cornering, & at the limit, may upset the balance & cause a spin. This should be explored on a skid pad, as you don't want to find out on the track, where intimate encounters with rocks, trees or walls can really spoil your day. In the end, how fast one goes on a track probably depends more on the size of the cojones/wallet of the driver, or whether the car has a full cage. YMMV.

I've tracked front wheel drive, Porsche 911 early year cars, BMW M, Camaro 1LE, and now the Z06. Low HP is all about conserving speed, no brakes, scrub with tires as much as possible, 911 love late apex, early brake, coast in deep past apex, tap brake, when the car rotates, hammer the gas and see yah, Camaro was all bout early entry and rotate with gas. My Z06 with stock rims has too much rear grip, not enough front foot print, I'm moving to the 18x11 and 18x13 to go for a more balanced feel. Watched videos of those with this setup like a miata/944 on steroids. With stock rims IMO, it forces you to diamond off the turns to get back on throttle as fast as possible, if you throttle up too early you invoke push.

If two GS's are on track the Driver that's better and carries the most speed into and through the corners will put down the lowest lap times. Same with any of the C7's.

Driving corners using a late apex technique doesn't necessarily equate to lower lap times. It results in an easier car to manage off corner. For those Driver's that are more comfortable this way it may result in lower lap times for them.

A particular corner may require a late apex but a well balanced car does not. If you aren't trail braking you are lapping slower than you could be.

Corner exit is easy and most good Driver's are similar. Entry and mid corner speed is the separation.

This way is fast in a 911. Notice he is never late and puts the car where it wants to go. His throttle traces show he doesn't do a lot of coasting.

With the repave at this track I expect Poorsha to be nearly this pace with his new ZR1. I expect he may see nearly 170 mph on the main straight in it.

"Early in and early out", I've never heard of this before and it sounds like a recipe for running off the track at the track out portion of the corner.
I assume you're talking about the turn in being early, and then getting on the power early at the apex. The only way this would work would be if your corner speed is way below maximum. The whole point of discussing cornering technique is to minimize lap times. If you're driving below the maximum speed possible, which is what most of us are doing most of the time, then you can play around with lines, etc.

Most instructors, books, schools preach the slow in, fast out technique which basically means a late apex which allows an earlier safe return to the throttle. The higher powered the car generally needs a later apex than a low powered car. The Early in, Early out technique is something that sounds like a defensive driving technique when you're trying to prevent a faster car from passing you.

Thanks, I totally agree.

All cars are momentum cars, even the really fast ones.

However, sometimes you need to sacrifice a smidgen of corner speed to get a cleaner exit. Even 1 mph more on an exit will allow you to be traveling 1mph faster than a comparable car. And 1 mph, over the length of an entire straight, is significant and more valuable than any small gain had by overdriving the car in to the turn.

Late apexes worked really well in the olden days of motorcycle racing but rarely worked in a car. Now even the MotoGP motorcycle racers are early apexing.

The fastest drivers turn in as early as they can and carry absolutely as much speed as they can to the apex. They then maintain that speed all the way through the corner and onto the following straights.

If they have to lift at exit they have turned in too early. If they can stay flat while using every last inch of the track, like Corey Friedman does as he exits T10 at Summit Main up onto the main straight in the video I posted, then they have it just right.

It was best said above. All cars are momentum cars. Make the cornering arc as big as possible and carry as much speed as you can all the time.

Some cars are much faster than other's like the new ZR1. This new ZR1 is certainly one of and may prove itself to be the fastest production car of all time on american road courses.

You guys need to stop before I put my Vette on track to see how she trail brakes:D, my mustangs do not like that too much. They definitely do not enjoy left foot braking, I have to be super easy with it.

Also, the tracks I run like CMP, RA, Roebling, and a few others in the Southeast are not early apex friendly. CMP's whole track is late apex just about. Of course my C6Z has not been on track so it is different than what I am used to.

Well I did just remember some corners you can early apex and trail-brake into at those tracks. It has been years since I have been on those tracks, I went to RA last December and before that it was 2014 that I had been on track last lol.

This is true, I think they may be talking about normal turn in or some corners like T1 at Roebline or going into "Oak Tree" at VIR. You can turn in early and trail brake those corners. A 90 degree corner is a no go, I can see a normal turn in with trail braking but what you said comes into play. Early in, early out is something that is against everything I have ever heard.

I can agree with that statement, it is all about how you drive them.

1 MPH is 1 MPH but botch T7 at RA with early apexing, you can lose 5+ MPH and that little turbo Miata seems to have 600 rwhp until you can catch him halfway down the backstraight. He will have the better line late apexing and getting on the throttle a couple seconds earlier. You can trail brake a tad taking the normal line, which puts me roughly the same speed down into 10A. That equals out lap time-wise.

Here is a trace from T1 at VIR. Both are C7 Z06 but different drivers. Both have about the same maximum speed prior to braking for T1. Both have about the same apex speed in T1. Yet the red line car gains 0.4s over that 800 ft simply because the car rolled more speed down to the apex. To Steve's point, once you reach a certain point of proficiency most time is going to be gained in the speed carried from the start of braking to the apex.



https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...e6a7b0d664.png

That video is Cory Friedman, he has been racing since he was in college, dad owns Porsche race shop and had raced at several pro events, that is a full blown Cup car. Hard to compare unless you are driving a professional setup $200K car

Ok yes, I definitely agree with this:thumbs:.

Sean will be very nearly that quick on the repaved surface. Pretty incredible for a street car.

Examples that I use are of drivers that are actually going quickly and the techniques that they are using are real.

In my opinion these are the only Porsches that should even be considered because they are simply incredible cars. Nearly all of the rest of them are just in the way. A fact proven out if you watch Sean's video chasing down the 997 cup car at Summit Point Main. Even then with Sean driving his C7 ZO6 the 997 cup car had to be well driven just to stay in front. All of the rest of the Porsches had nothing for him whatsoever. My expectation is that when Sean is in his ZR1 that cup car won't have anything for him either.

^^sure but for how many laps do you think the Zr1 is going to be able to hold the CUP car? They are just two different cars with different missions.

Most likely, a ZR1 in the right hands with a Cup car in the wrong hands, the Cup car get's it's ass handed to it in a typical track day setting.

Most of the time when these two meet in the future it will be at track days which are usually relegated to 30 minute sessions or less. Ours tend to be 20 or 25 depending on where we are. I happen to run predominantly with PCA and have since 2003 so needless to say I have seen a lot of Porsche's. At our events for the length of our sessions it's my expectation that there are exactly 0 Porsche's that will run with a well driven ZR1.

For my friends and I at track days the mission is the same regardless of what cars we are driving. Go out, have fun with friends, be quick once in awhile and bring the car back in one piece. I am pretty confident the ZR1 is going to perform admirably in a track day/session environment and that question will soon be answered.

Before the stick shift GT3 came out recently, knowing what I know about C7 Z06s I think my choice would have been for a C7 Grand Sport with manual.

Now that the GT3 is stick and Porsche has figured out the oiling issues with the post Mezger engine architecture, it's hard to deny it is a good choice. Why not go with the 3,100 lb naturally aspirated car that has roughly the same performance on paper as a ZR1?

Well, probably because this is a Vette forum and most here are Vette people, so you're fighting an uphill battle there.
And you can't forget the subjective "Porsche is ugly" comment that holds no weight when it comes to track performance. That one pops up all the time.:lol:

I agree, though, if I had the money, the GT3 is a seriously nice choice.
It probably gives a better pure driving experience, given the engineering advances.

I'd always try to start with the lightest car available.

Can't find fault with the ZR1, however, which is probably a better choice to drive to and from the road course and on a daily basis.

Oh heck, I don't even like the Porsche design language. The C7 lines are far more attractive despite having to package the engine up front. But a car, especially a track car, thrives on simple but effective engineering. Driving feel is more like 99% science nowadays so the engineering has to be stout.

At C6 Z06/911 GT3 curb weight you have a chance of having a car that is consistent so you can focus on your driving and getting in the zone. At 3,600lbs every second you drive it hard the car will shift parameters noticeably and your driving will have to adjust. Yes, lightest car possible 100%.

For a daily driver I bet that front axle lift in the GT3 is pure bliss. Beats me why GM never bothered to make one. The front overhang on the ZR1 looks to be a foot longer. Where the C7 ZR1 will shine is comfort and luggage space. That remains a Chevy stronghold.

That's a big caveat. I guess Randy Pobst found that out too when he first tested the Z06 for Motor Trend.

Found this on YouTube, ZR1 vs Porsche at Road America. ZR1 looks to have the Porsche guys covered.

https://youtu.be/9P0WPut2Cl4


Happy Motoring!

You say stuff like this but here is a full tank of gas at full tilt in a C7 Z06. My fastest lap was lap 21 of 26. If you want, scroll to the 19 minute mark where I pass one 911 GT3 Cup car and then chase the CI in the other GT3 Cup car until I need to come in for fuel. Other than the fact that I doubt the ZR1 is going to be able to go 32 minutes on a tank of fuel in every other respect I expect it to destroy even the GT3 Cup car.

Very cool! That's a typical track day. Lot's of slower Porsche's that you have to wait on while they get out of your way. :D

For reference in this video this ZR1 is lapping about 10 seconds slower than an SCCA GT2 car there and we've already shown an example of a C7Z06 being driven at nearly GT2 car lap record pace. Unleashed the ZR1 is going to be off the charts fast!!

Driver is being very thoughtful as he makes his way around in his incredible new car. Fun to watch and it sounds great!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P0W...ature=youtu.be

I liked the "woah" around 18:40. Made me laugh. :D

I love watching this video.

Comical to me that there are still people that don't respect these cars as some of the very fastest in the world. In addition to fast, Corvette's in general are some of the most fun recreational track day cars there are and you can still drive them on the street in reasonable comfort. Just amazing.

It is straightforward to see that you were not driving at full tilt or you were driving a modified Z. Cup 2s overheat on the Z well before the 10 minute mark and the car heatsoaks continuously. Great drivers put the fastest time down in lap 2 or 3 and don't have enough fuel on board to do 26 laps on any course.

There is no destroying in HPDE. If you are a good driver you would make a living out of it. Some folks are simply tuning their cars in HPDE's or working out bugs. If you pass them it means nothing. The only comparison that makes any sense is that of drivers in a regulated GT3 class.

It is also a pure waste of time seeing an HPDE video of someone else, especially when they use traction control. I have far more respect for drivers of older P cars that wrestle a rear engine car that's fully mechanical. Whether they "win" or not in HPDE is not relevant to me, but the fact that they have no PTM to steady their car means a lot.

Keep changing your argument so you have something to complain about, we know you come here with an ax to grind against the C7. The car was on Pirelli scrubs, AP Racing brakes, DSC Sport controller, and with a decent driver at the wheel. You made the comment that the car was so heavy it couldn't maintain pace after a couple laps so I gave you an example of it maintaining pace with a 997 Cup in very capable hands for many laps late in a session.

Here's the lap report from that session in case anyone is interested.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.cor...b33aa0b657.png

Awesome, that is pretty consistent across the board. I would expect a drop off due to overheating near the end but a few 1:15's proved overwise. Any cooling mods?

No cooling mods. Stock 2017 M7.

The 991.2 GT3 was only 0.25 seconds slower than the C7 Z06 at Laguna Seca in Motor Trend's comparison. How come, since the power to weight ratio is so much better for the Corvette? The GT3 puts power down better, it's well sorted, plus its performance is more consistent. I expect the RS will keep up with the ZR1 in 1 minute and 30 seconds of comparison track time, and probably be quicker in Nurburgring like 7 minute comparisons.

The GT3 was also faster than my C7 Z in the 1.5 mile run. I understand the GT3 launches very predictably, so in your average 0-60 or stop light pull you may lose to one quite easily.

In fact, you have shown that I'm right. You don't run Cup 2's and in fact have at least $15k in mods.

It's not surprising at all that you can do a similar time in a heavily modded modern Corvette compared to a decade old Porsche driven in an HPDE environment.

Your statements are not true of a showroom floor C7 Z06 nor is the comparison adequate given HPDE environment.

Even if a modern moded 6 figure Corvette can do the same lap time as a decade old Porsche that's meant to run for 50+ race hours, it's not really surprising to me. My LT4 lasted only 25 hours in HPDE, not actual racing.

For the record I don't have an axe to grind against the C7. I find the Z51 and the Grand Sport versions to be great value.

I can'r imagine anyone saying a modern Porsche 911 is ugly. They are financially ugly (to buy and maintain) for sure, but ugly to drive and look at, um no.

Have you seen the ZR1?! Adam West must be thrilled that the Bat-Mobile has been updated.

The thing for me and Porsche is that no matter how wealthy I become in time, I'm not sure I'll ever be willing to piss away money like that. The variants that compare favorably in performance to say a lightly modified $65K C7 GS cost 2-3x as much to buy, and probably 5-10x more to maintain. The value just isn't there for me.

I wouldn't be happy either if the engine in my car broke after the equivalent of about 8 track days.