engineers diagnosis tracking voids waranty
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 5,145
Likes: 125
From: The Motor City
To my way of thinking, the LS6 has piston speeds that explore the
limits of durability and there were reports of bottom end build quality
issues that were discovered when crate LS6's were disassembled.
(Not to mention the valve spring issues.)
But the LS2 and LS1 have more conventional piston speeds. Their bottom ends seem pretty durable even in the face of some (to me) exceptionally hot oil operating temps.
The rod bolts on LS1 & LS6 engines are known to be a weak link. It's the first thing that should be upgraded if you are building an LSx shortblock.
Safety Car
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,275
Likes: 4
From: Vancouver WA
Sounds like the typical GM BS to get out of a defect. There was a guy here that bought a Z06 and was just driving down the highway and had a valve spring break and drop a valve into the piston. The dealer told him that he found some rubber in the rear fender well, and voided his warranty. I guess you are suppose to drive these new corvettes like a grandma going to church.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,001
Likes: 0
From: Naples Florida
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the continuing saga of trying to find out about my rough idle gm flew in an engineer. Mech said he seemed really sharp and went over all the testing so far ; everything you can think of and stuff you never heard of. He called bowling green eng designers and their conclusion is "stretched rod". He also stated this was caused by abuse when I was doing an HPDE at sebring! Now this car is an 06 a6, with rev limiter and auto that wont let you downshift if it thinks your doing something stupid. Has anyone ever heard of a stretched rod.
My service mgr says car wont let you do what engineer says and agrees with me.
Im presently going through the lemon law process and the car has been at the dealer for 5 weeks. They are replacing the rods as a goodwill gesture not waranty due to his label " abuse". Should be ready thurs. If this holds up in arbitration every car thats tracked can be labled abuse and void waranty. I immediately called the liason at gm and informed her the owners manual allows for track use and she said she would research it. Please chime in with suggestions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In the continuing saga of trying to find out about my rough idle gm flew in an engineer. Mech said he seemed really sharp and went over all the testing so far ; everything you can think of and stuff you never heard of. He called bowling green eng designers and their conclusion is "stretched rod". He also stated this was caused by abuse when I was doing an HPDE at sebring! Now this car is an 06 a6, with rev limiter and auto that wont let you downshift if it thinks your doing something stupid. Has anyone ever heard of a stretched rod.
My service mgr says car wont let you do what engineer says and agrees with me.
Im presently going through the lemon law process and the car has been at the dealer for 5 weeks. They are replacing the rods as a goodwill gesture not waranty due to his label " abuse". Should be ready thurs. If this holds up in arbitration every car thats tracked can be labled abuse and void waranty. I immediately called the liason at gm and informed her the owners manual allows for track use and she said she would research it. Please chime in with suggestions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,036
Likes: 13
From: Edmonton AB
Originally Posted by Slalom4me
To my way of thinking, the LS6 has piston speeds that explore the
limits of durability and there were reports of bottom end build quality
issues that were discovered when crate LS6's were disassembled.
(Not to mention the valve spring issues.)
But the LS2 and LS1 have more conventional piston speeds. Their
bottom ends seem pretty durable even in the face of some (to me)
exceptionally hot oil operating temps.
limits of durability and there were reports of bottom end build quality
issues that were discovered when crate LS6's were disassembled.
(Not to mention the valve spring issues.)
But the LS2 and LS1 have more conventional piston speeds. Their
bottom ends seem pretty durable even in the face of some (to me)
exceptionally hot oil operating temps.
Thank you for pointing out my typo.
Incidently, the LS1 & LS6 rotating assemblies are similar, but not the same.
Originally Posted by Scooter70
I'm not sure if the rods & rod bolts are different on the LS2 but I doubt it.
The rod bolts on LS1 & LS6 engines are known to be a weak link.
The rod bolts on LS1 & LS6 engines are known to be a weak link.
these contributed to the LS6's 500 RPM increase in redline (6,500 for the
LS6 versus 6,000 for th LS1.) These rod bolts are available as p/n #12568069
to retrofit LS1 rods (an LSx buildup intended for sustained piston speeds
at and above those at the OEM redline would perhaps benefit from rod
bolts (& rods) from the aftermarket.)
The LS1, LS6, LS2 and LS3 all share a stroke of 92.0 mm (3.62").
The first iteration LS1 has a redline of 6,000. This results in piston speeds
of 3622 FPM which are in line with the speeds of the previous gen
1996 LT4 - it has a stroke of 3.48" and a redline of 6,300 - good for
3,654 FPM.
Like the LS6, the LS2 and LS3 also have a redline of 6,500. This results in
piston speeds of 3924 FPM, high for a production engine by traditional standards
but increasingly mundane in modern terms.
By comparison, the LS7 has a stroke of 101.6mm (4.00") and a redline of 7,000.
This results in piston speeds of 4,666 FPM - exceptional for a production
7.0 L (427 ci) engine covered by a 5yr/100k powertrain warranty.
Here is where the LS7 slots in amongst engines with some of the highest piston
speeds. When the displacement, configuration and production levels of the other
engines is considered, this makes the redline of the LS7 all the more remarkable
to me.
1. Honda S2000: (2.0L I4)
Engine Code: F20C1
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.31"
Redline: 9000rpm
Piston Speed: 4965 Ft/min
2. Lamborghini Gallardo (5.0L V10)
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.25" X 3.65"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4866.67 Ft/min
3. Acura Integra Type R (1.8L I4)
Engine Code: B18C5
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.43"
Redline: 8400rpm
Piston Speed: 4802 Ft/min
4. BMW M3 (Germany) (3.3L I6)
Engine Code: S54
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.58"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4773.33 Ft/min
5. Honda S2000 2004 (2.0L I4)
Engine Code: F22C
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.57"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4760 Ft/min
6. Honda Integra Type R (JDM - 2.0L I4)
Engine Code: K20A
Bore/Stroke: 3.39" X 3.39"
Redline: 8400rpm
Piston Speed: 4746 Ft/min
7. Acura Integra GSR 2001 (1.8L I4)
Engine Code: B18C
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.43"
Redline: 8200rpm
Piston Speed: 4687.67 Ft/min
8. Corvette Z06 (7.0L V8)
Engine Code: LS7
Bore/Stroke: 4.125" X 4.00" (104.8 mm x 101.6 mm)
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4666.67 Ft/min
9. Saleen S7 (7.0L V8)
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 4.125" X 4.00"
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4666.67 Ft/min
10. Acura TSX (2.4L I4)
Engine Code: K24A2
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.90"
Redline: 7100rpm
Piston Speed: 4615 Ft/min
11. Suzuki Hayabusa Sport Prototype (1.3L I4)
Engine Code: W701
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 2.48"
Redline: 11000rpm
Piston Speed: 4546.67 Ft/min
12. Honda Civic Type R (1.6L I4)
Engine Code: B16B
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.03"
Redline: 9000rpm
Piston Speed: 4545 Ft/min
13. Toyota Celica GTS / Matrix XRS 2001 (1.8L I4)
Engine Code: 2ZZ-GE
Bore/Stroke: 3.23" X 3.35"
Redline: 8100rpm
Piston Speed: 4522.5 Ft/min
14. Honda Prelude Type S (JDM - 2.2L I4)
Engine Code: H22A
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.57"
Redline: 7500rpm
Piston Speed: 4462.5 Ft/min
15. Acura RSX Type S (2.0L I4)
Engine Code: K20A2
Bore/Stroke: 3.38" X 3.38"
Redline: 7900rpm
Piston Speed: 4450.33 Ft/min
16. Ferrari 360 Modena (incl. Challenge, Stradale, etc) (5.4L V12)
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.35" X 3.11"
Redline: 8500rpm
Piston Speed: 4405.83 Ft/min
17. Lamborghini Murcielago (6.2L V12)
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.42"
Redline: 7600rpm
Piston Speed: 4332 Ft/min
18. McLaren F1 (6.1L V12)
Engine Code: BMW S70/2
Bore/Stroke: 3.386" X 3.425"
Redline: 7500rpm
Piston Speed: 4287.5 Ft/min
19. Renault Clio 2.0 RS 2003 (2.0L I4)
Engine Code: F4R
Bore/Stroke: 3.26" X 3.66"
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4270 Ft/min
20. Porsche 911 GT3 RS 2004 (3.6L H6)
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.94" X 3.01"
Redline: 8500rpm
Piston Speed: 4264.17 Ft/min
.
Engine Code: F20C1
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.31"
Redline: 9000rpm
Piston Speed: 4965 Ft/min
2. Lamborghini Gallardo (5.0L V10)
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.25" X 3.65"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4866.67 Ft/min
3. Acura Integra Type R (1.8L I4)
Engine Code: B18C5
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.43"
Redline: 8400rpm
Piston Speed: 4802 Ft/min
4. BMW M3 (Germany) (3.3L I6)
Engine Code: S54
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.58"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4773.33 Ft/min
5. Honda S2000 2004 (2.0L I4)
Engine Code: F22C
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.57"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4760 Ft/min
6. Honda Integra Type R (JDM - 2.0L I4)
Engine Code: K20A
Bore/Stroke: 3.39" X 3.39"
Redline: 8400rpm
Piston Speed: 4746 Ft/min
7. Acura Integra GSR 2001 (1.8L I4)
Engine Code: B18C
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.43"
Redline: 8200rpm
Piston Speed: 4687.67 Ft/min
8. Corvette Z06 (7.0L V8)
Engine Code: LS7
Bore/Stroke: 4.125" X 4.00" (104.8 mm x 101.6 mm)
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4666.67 Ft/min
9. Saleen S7 (7.0L V8)
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 4.125" X 4.00"
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4666.67 Ft/min
10. Acura TSX (2.4L I4)
Engine Code: K24A2
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.90"
Redline: 7100rpm
Piston Speed: 4615 Ft/min
11. Suzuki Hayabusa Sport Prototype (1.3L I4)
Engine Code: W701
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 2.48"
Redline: 11000rpm
Piston Speed: 4546.67 Ft/min
12. Honda Civic Type R (1.6L I4)
Engine Code: B16B
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.03"
Redline: 9000rpm
Piston Speed: 4545 Ft/min
13. Toyota Celica GTS / Matrix XRS 2001 (1.8L I4)
Engine Code: 2ZZ-GE
Bore/Stroke: 3.23" X 3.35"
Redline: 8100rpm
Piston Speed: 4522.5 Ft/min
14. Honda Prelude Type S (JDM - 2.2L I4)
Engine Code: H22A
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.57"
Redline: 7500rpm
Piston Speed: 4462.5 Ft/min
15. Acura RSX Type S (2.0L I4)
Engine Code: K20A2
Bore/Stroke: 3.38" X 3.38"
Redline: 7900rpm
Piston Speed: 4450.33 Ft/min
16. Ferrari 360 Modena (incl. Challenge, Stradale, etc) (5.4L V12)
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.35" X 3.11"
Redline: 8500rpm
Piston Speed: 4405.83 Ft/min
17. Lamborghini Murcielago (6.2L V12)
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.42"
Redline: 7600rpm
Piston Speed: 4332 Ft/min
18. McLaren F1 (6.1L V12)
Engine Code: BMW S70/2
Bore/Stroke: 3.386" X 3.425"
Redline: 7500rpm
Piston Speed: 4287.5 Ft/min
19. Renault Clio 2.0 RS 2003 (2.0L I4)
Engine Code: F4R
Bore/Stroke: 3.26" X 3.66"
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4270 Ft/min
20. Porsche 911 GT3 RS 2004 (3.6L H6)
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.94" X 3.01"
Redline: 8500rpm
Piston Speed: 4264.17 Ft/min
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,036
Likes: 13
From: Edmonton AB
Incidently, for the LS1, LS6, LS2 & LS3, here are piston speeds
for a few higher-than-OEM RPM levels. Compare these against the
speeds listed for various engines in the previous post.
..RPM .. FPM ..
6,700 - 4,045
6,800 - 4,105
6,900 - 4,165
7,000 - 4,225
7,100 - 4,286
7,200 - 4,346
7,300 - 4,406
At least one regular here at CF writes about turning a stock LS6
to 7,200 RPM. Even with regular maintenance to inspect and replace
parts, I would expect that the odds turn bad in a messy fashion at
some point.
If a car is peaking at redline before the end of the straight; then, rather
than deal with the shift-or-exceed redline dilemma, switching to taller
tires will lower the effective final drive ratio.
.
for a few higher-than-OEM RPM levels. Compare these against the
speeds listed for various engines in the previous post.
..RPM .. FPM ..
6,700 - 4,045
6,800 - 4,105
6,900 - 4,165
7,000 - 4,225
7,100 - 4,286
7,200 - 4,346
7,300 - 4,406
At least one regular here at CF writes about turning a stock LS6
to 7,200 RPM. Even with regular maintenance to inspect and replace
parts, I would expect that the odds turn bad in a messy fashion at
some point.
If a car is peaking at redline before the end of the straight; then, rather
than deal with the shift-or-exceed redline dilemma, switching to taller
tires will lower the effective final drive ratio.
.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 43,084
Likes: 33
From: Raleigh / Rolesville NC
My understanding is the LS6 was tested at 6,900 rpms for several hours with no failure or problems.
My Changed my redline to 6750 as we found not power difference between 6500 & 6900. This way when I shift at 6750 I am still into a good power rmp range
My Changed my redline to 6750 as we found not power difference between 6500 & 6900. This way when I shift at 6750 I am still into a good power rmp range
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 50,808
Likes: 9
From: Buy USA products! Check the label! Employ Americans
I don't think it where peak power is but how much it drops back from the peak power when you shift. So you may want to go with more rpms to stay in your power band better.
Manufactures usually test engines wide open for near 100-200 hours. I remember reading ZR-1 had to go 175 hr.
My LS6 is set at 6900 but 6600 is usually enough to fend off most.
Manufactures usually test engines wide open for near 100-200 hours. I remember reading ZR-1 had to go 175 hr.
My LS6 is set at 6900 but 6600 is usually enough to fend off most.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 25,889
Likes: 7
From: Virginia Beach
CI 3-5-6-7-8 Veteran
You're talking about pushrods.Again read above.
To the OP... sounds odd to me for sure. My redline is set to 7k, but I shift at 6500ish.
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Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 746
Likes: 0
From: brooksville , fl 34602
thanks everybody for the input ; alot of which will go to arbitration.
Just got back from the dealer and found car and motor in a million peices. Tech was still taking apart motor and so far found no evidence of any problem. Heads showed no sign of injury. I 'll probably get a call this afternoon about the rods. Service mgr and tech are still with me on this! What an amazing sight , all the parts. Stay tuned.
Just got back from the dealer and found car and motor in a million peices. Tech was still taking apart motor and so far found no evidence of any problem. Heads showed no sign of injury. I 'll probably get a call this afternoon about the rods. Service mgr and tech are still with me on this! What an amazing sight , all the parts. Stay tuned.
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 746
Likes: 0
From: brooksville , fl 34602
update ; this is great : service mgr told me no unusual wear found anywhere in motor. He called area rep and advised him of findings and was told to just put in a new motor.
My claim with the lemon law is my tanked resale value providing the funky idle fixes itself. The gm liason called and offered an extended warranty and I said no I still wanted a repurchase. She took note and said she would get back to me wed. Stay tuned!!!!!!!!!!!
My claim with the lemon law is my tanked resale value providing the funky idle fixes itself. The gm liason called and offered an extended warranty and I said no I still wanted a repurchase. She took note and said she would get back to me wed. Stay tuned!!!!!!!!!!!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 9,899
Likes: 1,839
From: Hot Springs AR
Frankly, I think that's greedy. A new engine (assuming the problem is fixed), is no hit on resale. Free extended warrenty is just a bonus.
But hey, I *never* have a car with a warrenty to start with, so I'm always on my own.
Have a good one,
Mike
But hey, I *never* have a car with a warrenty to start with, so I'm always on my own.
Have a good one,
Mike
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 746
Likes: 0
From: brooksville , fl 34602
Is it greedy? Would you buy a used vette that was in the shop for 5 weeks and completely torn down ; and pay the same price as one that was unmolested. People that check vehicle history would run the other way. If you saw it totaly torn down I think you might have a different view. By the way I only have 20000 mi on car. Still you have me thinking!
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 25,889
Likes: 7
From: Virginia Beach
CI 3-5-6-7-8 Veteran
^ A service history report would show a new engine. If you were an honest sell it'd be easy to explain why. A car is just a sum of many parts. Parts can be replaced. The car is not somehow tainted.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 9,899
Likes: 1,839
From: Hot Springs AR
Cobra,
Now who's being greedy??
Anotherone,
I understand your frustration, and I certainly respect your criteria of what's a go/no-go in buying a car, but I truly don't think you'll lose any money when you sell/trade your car. A salvage title, sure, but not a simple engine change. If someone trys to twist that, then let 'em pass.
In fact, it could be a bonus; the new buyer gets an engine with 20K less miles on it.
Have a good one,
Mike
Now who's being greedy??
Anotherone,
I understand your frustration, and I certainly respect your criteria of what's a go/no-go in buying a car, but I truly don't think you'll lose any money when you sell/trade your car. A salvage title, sure, but not a simple engine change. If someone trys to twist that, then let 'em pass.
In fact, it could be a bonus; the new buyer gets an engine with 20K less miles on it.
Have a good one,
Mike
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,855
Likes: 2
From: Grovetown GA
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 50,808
Likes: 9
From: Buy USA products! Check the label! Employ Americans
update ; this is great : service mgr told me no unusual wear found anywhere in motor. He called area rep and advised him of findings and was told to just put in a new motor.
My claim with the lemon law is my tanked resale value providing the funky idle fixes itself. The gm liason called and offered an extended warranty and I said no I still wanted a repurchase. She took note and said she would get back to me wed. Stay tuned!!!!!!!!!!!
My claim with the lemon law is my tanked resale value providing the funky idle fixes itself. The gm liason called and offered an extended warranty and I said no I still wanted a repurchase. She took note and said she would get back to me wed. Stay tuned!!!!!!!!!!!
Get an LS3 and it will be worth more