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Let's talk Ported TP, X-pipe, CAI/filter with NO TUNE
Hey guys,
This topic has been beaten to death but maybe hasn't quite gotten the specific focus it could. Now that a lot of people are jumping on the Ported TB boat because of the great Tony M reviews I think many people may be asking the same question as I am. Is it ok to run Xpipe, PTB, and CAI with no tune? For my own selfish reasons let's focus on the 15' and 16' years because it seems that the 17' stock tune may be less friendly to these types of mods.
I've currently got a Borla X-pipe, Katech PTB (With Tony M on order), and a Haltech CAI sitting in the box. I ran the three items above last summer and the car ran great and very hard until sometimes it didn't where it was clearly losing power after some hard runs. Due to this I took the CAI off but haven't been to the track since. The car was night and day stronger with the CAI and I miss the extra grunt. Recent revelations have me thinking maybe it was just air in the coolant lines which killed the power and not some timing pull condition.
I know one or two members were going to get this combo tested on a dyno but to my knowledge it didn't happen for various reasons. I know some guys run all of the above and pulleys but I'm not exactly into that. I don't want COT to make it safe....I want it to be running well and good within the stock tables.
As it stands now I have a few options.
1. Throw the Haltech back on if I can ever get Jim to send me a new seal (is he ok btw?).
2. Order a AFE CAI with the low flow filter. Would pushing less CFM than the Haltech make the combo more likely to work?
3. Get a green filter or AFE dry filter in the OEM unit. Frankly I'm half on the boat that the filter change is snake oil.
4. Leave it be! We all know it's not going to be number 4 so even if you're feeling number 4 vote for something else.
Other variables are I live at essentially sea level and I really drive the car. I think some guys get mods and then hammer it once a Sunday and are like "yeah the combo works". This car puts the power down every day many times a day.
Needless to say I'm not tuning it for all the wildly obvious reasons. I just want to make sure to take advantage of all the "tune free" hp/tq I can get my hands on. I know some guys say even a CAI alone is no good and too lean but then there are plenty of people who have been running CAIs for years with no issues. I'm looking for the opinion of the moderates that are down with CAIs in general but think putting NOS, 2 pulleys, headers, and a KB without a tune are taking it a little too far. I'd love to get it on a dyno with AFR info but as I live in NY there aren't a thousand good shops around me like the rest of you. It seems you get good air or you get good tuning shops.
More dyno passes, with and without PTB & 2 wideband locations!!
I have a 2016 C7Z/A8.
I have just finished my 2nd round of mods to this car.
My first round of mods included:
Halltech CAI, Drag Wheels/Tires, and Torco.
My second round of mods included:
Mamo Ported Throtte Body and Borla X-Pipe.
After hearing about the concerns of possible lean conditions with this combination of mods (on a stock tune), I decided to have the car dyno’d to verify a safe AFR.
I took it in Saturday Apr.1st for the dyno and came out with a dyno sheet that showed lean conditions (using a tailpipe sensor).
Here is a quick summary of the AFR shown on my dyno from Saturday:
13.6@3500, 13.4@4000, 13.2@4500, 13.0@5000, 12.6@5500, 12.3@6000, 11.5@6500.
After this dyno was done, one observation was that tailpipe sensors are known to read leaner than the pre-cat sensor on cars equipped with cat. Conv.’s. The general consensus from my research was that on average the tailpipe reading would be 0.2-0.5 AFR points LEANER using a tailpipe sensor than the more accurate reading in the lead-pipe using a pre-cat sensor.
A couple of months prior I had purchased a norcal_ss guage which was equipped with the bosch wideband 02 sensor option. While I had my X-Pipe out, I had a bung welded into my LH lead pipe in the pre-cat position so that I could mount the bosch wideband sensor. Saturday after my dyno, I spent the remainder of the day running the wiring and mounting the gauge, so that I could have an independent pre-cat wideband to hopefully get more accurate readings.
Today, I took my car back to the same dyno and got two good clean runs in, and then removed the ported TB and installed the non-ported stock TB, and got two more good clean runs in. I took the average of each (almost identical) run, with the PTB, and without the PTB… and consolidated the results and compared them with my pre-cat wideband results.
I actually video’d my AFR guage with the dash RPM readout in the background for each run, and did the same consolidation with that data as well. Each graph line represents two very consistent lines, for each data point, which were consolidated and averaged out..for maximizing consistency and accuracy within the circumstances.
Dyno Results:
1. Interestingly, the car actually ran approx 0.2 APR points RICHER with the ported TB, than without—I never would have expected that.
2. What was the shocker was that the average difference between the wideband sensor (pre-cat) and the wideband sensor (tailpipe) was about 0.8 AFR points!!
3. Pre-Cat AFR (with PTB) was the following:
12.7@3400, 12.3@4000, 12.2@4600, 12.1@5100, 12.0@5600, 11.4@6000, 10.5@6500. (you can look at the graph for more data points and detail)
So, if you believe the pre-cat wideband bosch sensor is accurate, then the car’s AFR is pretty darn safe.
The directions say that the sensor self calibrates when new, so it should be calibrated accurately.
I will say that I did not graph any AFR numbers from 2700rpm to 3300 rpm, and the pre-cat wideband reported a WOT AFR between 13.1-12.9 during the 2700-3300rpm range, which I was not happy with. The tailpipe wideband did not have accurate results in that range, probably due to the air dilution from the exit of the tailpipe at lower engine rpm's.
Tuners, is this OK?? Or is this a problem??
It strikes me that after you get out of the first gear launch, the car will not see this rpm again during the quarter mile pass, rpm drop goes nowhere near this low.
This post is not specifically about power, but I will note that the PTB added about 5RWHP and 10RWTQ, versus the NON-PTB runs.
OK, so how do you interpret these results guys???????
I posted not too long ago that I switched to the 2017 blower lid and on the dyno my car was reporting conditions which were too lean for my liking. I removed the intake to keep the 2017 lid but recently, as in last week, swapped the lid back to the stock 16 and put my Halltech back on. I intend to go back to the dyno soon to see how this combo reports. I've never had any issue and I run my car pretty hard, and I'm not talking about on the street hard like some people claim. If I dyno the car again and the air fuel is still 13+, the intake will come off for good and be sold.
I have a full Corsa Extreme exhaust, a Halltech CAI, and a Throttle Body spacer. Yesterday I ordered a ported throttle body from WeaponX. It should arrive next week and then will get immediately installed.
I'll let you know how things go.
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 03-31-2017 at 03:12 PM.
anything that increases airflow will deffinetly require a tune I know afe has the non oiled intake that you could get away with but my dealer told me me exhaust stuff isn't a problem with warranty just a tune and mods that can cause failure so really my pov is if you want more then exhaust just say f#ck it a go for a good tuned setup it'll be a lot sweeter in the long run I think
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 03-31-2017 at 10:45 PM.
I have a side question, will a drop in green filter and ported TB void a warranty? And would you need a tune for running that combo? My Z is currently bone stock with a Borla Xpipe
I have a 2016 A8 C7Z that has been running CAI, TRIC and torco..
i dyno'd it stock with 93 unl.
And also dyno'd it after the above mods..
the AFR leaned by 0.8 points after the CAI
& torco were added.
I have recently added the Borla X and the Mamo PTB and I am going back for another dyno tomorrow to get it (AFR and power) checked out again... I will post and report my findings.
OP "I don't want COT to make it safe....I want it to be running well and good within the stock tables."
From what I have seen with a wideband, COT kicks in at WOT and elevated rpm's regardless of what you do with the stock tune.
Install a wideband and measure to see what you are really dealing with.
fyi, COT begins kicking in at 5250 rpm (this is where it begins to richen the AFR)... (on the stock tune)...
it continues to get richer until about 6250 when it reaches its "maximum enrichened AFR" then stays steady from there on up.
This "excessive richness" hurts power.
So, WOT is not the only trigger that causes COT to kick in... just for clarification.
I don't track my 15 Z A8 just like spirited driving. I'm not looking to tune my car either.
I did the Tony Mano TB and drove for a few hundred miles, I felt the the difference in throttle response and more power. I then did the Borla X pipe, a week later, car was definitely louder in sport mode and felt a bit stronger and nice and quiet without drone in touring, no drone in S or Track mode.
I then installed the AFE, a week after the X pipe, which comes with the high flow oiled filter and the lower flow dry filter. I installed the oiled filter, started the car and got a check engine light, code P228 and code P227 , barometric pressure sensors, no clue what that is since I'm new to this technology. Car was also running lean.
I reset the chk eng light and drove 100 miles and stopped at my dealer to get oil changed and NY inspection, car failed because of oxygen sensor reading. Drove home and installed my stock CAI and car now passed inspection after putting on 100 miles which help recalibrate the MAF sensor. Car showing no codes.
Today I reinstalled the AFE with the dry filter and got no codes and car was not running lean, well within parameters. I couldn't go for a spirited drive because its raining here but I will on Sunday and give you my views.
Last edited by george vee; 03-31-2017 at 06:32 PM.
I have a side question, will a drop in green filter and ported TB void a warranty? And would you need a tune for running that combo? My Z is currently bone stock with a Borla Xpipe
From what many others have said on here those 3 mods will not void your warranty....and I hope that's the case because those are the first 3 things I'm doing when mine gets here in the next couple of weeks.
I don't track my 15 Z A8 just like spirited driving. I'm not looking to tune my car either.
I did the Tony Mano TB and drove for a few hundred miles, I felt the the difference in throttle response and more power. I then did the Borla X pipe, a week later, car was definitely louder in sport mode and felt a bit stronger and nice and quiet without drone in touring, no drone in S or Track mode.
I then installed the AFE, a week after the X pipe, which comes with the high flow oiled filter and the lower flow dry filter. I installed the oiled filter, started the car and got a check engine light, code P228 and code P227 , barometric pressure sensors, no clue what that is since I'm new to this technology. Car was also running lean.
I reset the chk eng light and drove 100 miles and stopped at my dealer to get oil changed and NY inspection, car failed because of oxygen sensor reading. Drove home and installed my stock CAI and car now passed inspection after putting on 100 miles which help recalibrate the MAF sensor. Car showing no codes.
Today I reinstalled the AFE with the dry filter and got no codes and car was not running lean, well within parameters. I couldn't go for a spirited drive because its raining here but I will on Sunday and give you my views.
I have a 2016 A8 C7Z that has been running CAI, TRIC and torco..
i dyno'd it stock with 93 unl.
And also dyno'd it after the above mods..
the AFR leaned by 0.8 points after the CAI
& torco were added.
I have recently added the Borla X and the Mamo PTB and I am going back for another dyno tomorrow to get it (AFR and power) checked out again... I will post and report my findings.
Will you dyno with and without the torco? Pretty please!!!
I too would love to see actual data on the variables that affect how far you can lean out the car using the stock program before throwing a code. Loss of warranty from a tune is the one thing preventing me from diving in and going full tilt with bolt-ons (ported blower, mid-length headers, ported tb, x-pipe, exhaust, intake, pulley, and e85). I wish they were more mod friendly like Ford (or supported more factory performance upgrades like Ford). While I am not advocating fraud, I think GM has become too heavy handed re: dealing with mods. If DiabloTune was more flexible with these mods, I would buy their tuner as it would be nice to not face warranty denial for a simple checksum when the failure and modification may have nothing to do with each other.
Great thread! I currently run all of the mods (Except the ported TB) plus the TRIC. Im thinking I just want to go ahead and tune the car to get the the maximum impact/effect of the mods. Not too worried about what dealer will say. I had a Chuck Cow tune done on my C6Z with ZERO issues so I will probably go in the same direction and perhaps add a ported TB while Im at it.
Last edited by Blvdbrawler; 03-31-2017 at 08:36 PM.
Great thread! I currently run all of the mods (Except the ported TB) plus the TRIC. Im thinking I just want to go ahead and tune the car to get the the maximum impact/effect of the mods. Not too worried about what dealer will say. I had a Chuck Cow tune done on my C6Z with ZERO issues so I will probably go in the same direction and perhaps add a ported TB while Im at it.
I honestly think im leaning towards tune as well.. I do want to wait 2-3k miles to break it in and make sure it isn't burning oil or anything irregular
Will GM get picky if they have to replace an engine under warranty?
There is little doubt (in my mind) that an aftermarket "OEM replacement" air filter like a K&N, etc., in the stock housing from any of the various manufacturers will not void the warranty but other stuff may cause issues.
Example: Now you go "modifying" the factory throttle body or the exhaust system by removing the factory x-pipe/rear cats or even changing the factory cold air intake system to one that has not received approval, then you "may" have a problem with GM covering a OEM warranty replacement. These "Bolt-on" are all connected to engine operation, right?
Last edited by C7/Z06 Man; 04-01-2017 at 01:21 AM.
03-31-2017, 02:21 PM
Let's talk Ported TP, X-pipe, CAI/filter with NO TUNE
