427Hotrod

I've said it for years....if you're not a tribologist.....you might not want to be creating your own oil concoctions.

I learned from my old buddy (retired from Amoco) years ago that there's a LOT of ways to reduce wear...and zinc was just the cheapest at the time. Many newer oils are much improved...but they do it with different and more expensive additives. Over the years I've worked with quite a few oil engineers from the big oil companies and learned a lot.

The best I can tell you is advertising is just that...advertising. There are some good things out there...but much is just hype.


JIM

augiedoggy

I dont know what to believe honestly.. when I bought my car the stock l48 had a stock cam with 2 wiped lobes... I know that didnt happen during breakin so how then?

I ran a flat tappet in my 355 build for over 10 years and always used a zddp additive.. even though is was an aggressive ramp lunati voodoo cam the surfaces showed very little wear when I swapped for the roller. My friend just installed that cam and lifters along with the springs and my old iron eagle heads in his 327 he built for his 64 impala.

As I understand it the main issue now days is the quality of the flat tappet lifters being sold. In any case its pretty commonly reported that flat tappet failures are much higher than they have ever been and Ive always read that the type of surface wear on the cam and lifters in a flat tappet was unique vs the types of wear on other engine components which is why the zddp was mainly an advantage with flat tappet cams.

Ive also read before too much is a bad thing. I have diesel truck and this discussion has come up there as well. My diesel does not have a flat tappet cam and im honestly not sure why so many diesel oils have an increased zddp level vs other oil packages. I imagine it has something to do with the bearing wear from the higher compression.

Bikespace

That is interesting, and I have mixed in some ZDDP with Mobil 1. But I accept the risk. A wiped lobe is nature telling you to swap to roller lifters. Just like GM did on every Corvette engine since 1987 (and every engine since 1995).

I wonder how much of this is confirmation bias, and the ease of reporting making it easy to find problems. 30 years ago, when they were last available new (in GM trucks anyway), a wiped flat-tappet cam lobe may have killed a car. Today, a C3 would get a new engine. An opportunity!

augiedoggy

I am basing my statement on the reporting of many guys that have been building engines for decades. (as well as some of the vendors that resell the cams and lifters) Also my limited research on the topic has told me flat tappet cams are a novelty now and most of the manufacturers of the past are gone with the replacements sold under the guise of those brands being completely different. This is especially true of the lifters. I think there is only one US manufacturer of chevy flat tappet lifters left.

and most off the shelf cams are also made by a small handfull of manufacturers who make them for all the well known "brands" out there of the past who no longer manufacturer or only manufacture custom grinds and specialty stuff now.

There are many shops and builders who wont even work with flat tappet setups anymore. And there are others that seem to know what works for them and only use that.

ddawson

Interesting. Love Speeds videos.

I just dropped of my low milage BBC block at the machine shop. He looked at the old bearings and the cylinder walls which were smooth. His guess without knowing what the hone roughness was that I was using the wrong oil.

I was using Mobile 1 0W-40.

427Hotrod

I think the point is excessive ZDDP isn't a cure-all for poor quality parts and machining. We've all seen cams get more aggressive with "Xtreme" whatever's and that tied with poor cam cores and lifter/lobe machining will cause issues. OEM's aren't buying flat tappets like they used to, so volumes are down which means there's no economy of scale like 40 years ago. Manufacturing is pushed to lowest bidder to see if they can get by.

But we also need to consider how many current OHC engines use a sliding/foot arrangement to open the valves. They aren't all rollers....it's a lobe sliding across a rocker. Not the same as a flat tappet with it's concentrated loading and rotation...but a long way from a roller. And Cummins still makes flat tappet diesels as well as many smaller engines used in off road and refrigeration stuff. If it's made well....it will survive.

My '32 Ford 5 window has a SBC with an old school Comp 270H flat tappet. It came that way when I bought it. It's always had Mobil 1 and is doing fine. My '82 Mustang GT has an Edelbrock head/cam package and is also doing fine with a flat tappet. But again...it's definitely not an aggressive lobe.

I've done a lot of oil testing over the years for work. I'm talking true in depth lab stuff...not a drop it in the mail oil change analysis. It's actually pretty interesting stuff and working with tribologists at the oil companies gives a lot of insight. For example...we tested Wally World Tech 2000 once because my customer was making it for them. It was actually a very good oil and held up well. Interestingly it was made from "re-refined" oil...just like a couple of the big time players on the market. BUT...think about it.....oil comes out of the ground....is refined through all the processes....goes in Grandma's car for 3K-5K miles and then goes back to be completely re-refined again....and then only the "X Stock" (the best stuff) is selected and a good additive package is installed. You end up with great oil. The base stock doesn't wear out...the additives do.

Lots of hype and spin around oils.

JIM

Rescue Rogers

I will stick with mobil1 20/50 and my solid lifter flat tappet. I tried the roller cams and lost an engine to the loss of needle bearings from the rollers....when I can afford the higher quality $1300 bushed lifters then I will , but there is no need currently until mobil1 changes their formulation.

roscobbc

Going back a few years after reading all the comments about the ZDDP additive, including lab reports it became quite apparent that "too much of a 'good' thing......is in fact a 'bad' thing" .....in as much as that it seems the ideal concentration of ZDDP seems to be between 1100 and 1400 ppm.
Higher concentrations seemingly have a retrograde effect with the 'concentrations' creating other potential lubrication and and oil life issues.
Here in the UK a few years ago we seemed to go through an information 'blank-out' where a number of suppliers of mineral oils with ZDDP additives were avoiding stating concentration of PPM levels, typically (and arrogantly) quoting vague references like "sufficient ZDDP" or no mention of it at all with a 'we know what we are doing' attitude. Hmmmm - try using that attitude to someone with a fresh engine build who's just 'wiped' a cam lobe!

Eric P

Too much is as bad as not enough . I watched the video this morning and it confirmed what I suspected all along that you can't just dump a ton of ZZDP additive along with a bottle of EOS and expect to it do wonders or the factory would already be doing it

68post

I use a synthetic polymer ester "zinc replacement" EP additive as to, hopefully, not create an imbalance. It has been tested by a tribologist.
I was worried about my 3 flat tappet engines and did not want to invest in expensive boutique oils for these stock engines. It is claimed to cling better to help reduce dry startup issues also.
One bottle covers 3 oil changes and I paid approx $12.88 per bottle.

chevymans 77

great video with solid lab test results, hard to argue with that

Thanks for sharing,

Neal

mikiemike46

Ok folks what a terrific thread including the attached video!!

Now can the expert panel please suggest a few "proper" oils that I can use in my 78SA L48??
Without stirring up any animosity with the forum??

MM46

Mdbirk

Valvoline vr1, amsoil zrod, Quakerstate classic car and shell rotella t4 come to mind.

ddawson

Add Lucas Hotrod oil too.

68blvert

My 68 has Crower cam and flat tappet lifters in it for 20 years now. Makes no noise, oil comes out slightly dirty but NO traces of gray or copper specks. Used to use Rotella 15w-40. But now use Rotella t4 10w-30. Non-synthetic, old school Dino oil. Hot oil pressure is about 25 at idle. About 70 under wot. T4 has a little over 900 ppm zinc AND still has high amounts of phosphorus. Of course my cam and lifters were made by Crower, in America, on American tooling using American materials. See the theme😆.

Mdbirk

Shell rotella meets SAE J300 specifications, it's 1200ppm max , 1034 minimum

68blvert

Yeah, I knew it still had a good amount of zinc but couldn’t remember what it was exactly.

Mdbirk

It really is good stuff!!!

68post

Diesel oils are higher in zinc, but also much higher in detergent too which scrubs away some of the zinc coating. This is likely why they're allowed a higher amount.
Marginal increase perhaps, but I'd be afraid to hang my hat on that alone.