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Because there has been new discussion about using AG Li batteries in Corvettes lately I felt obliged, as a matter of public safety, to share my experience with their product. I post it here as a matter of public awareness.
As much as I love the idea of AG's Li batteries I will not use them EVER after what happened in my Z4 M Coupe in 2016.
My BMW builder initially recommended them, having used them in his personal and customer race cars. So I had him install one in my Z4 M Coupe and left the car with him because he was going to do some dyno work later. The car sat for two weeks...then he suddenly called me - telling me that when he went out to get the car to start work he smelled smoke and when he opened the trunk he saw that the battery was smoking and the case was bulged out - failing! Luckily he found the problem then or MY CAR COULD HAVE BURNED TO THE GROUND!!!
AG's customer support was terrible at that time. Rarely was their phone picked up during business hours, and their voicemail was always full so I couldn't leave messages. Eventually I got someone, who thought a Z4 was a Porche, and kept insisting that the battery must have been installed incorrectly - which is ludicrous. Apparently they only honor their warranty if you first ship the battery to them (thus losing your evidence), and only if their obviously biased inspection shows that the fault was 100% theirs. I ended up dumping the problem on my builder, who refunded me.
In conclusion: I love the Li idea, but can't trust a company that almost burned my car down and doesn't stand by their customers.
See my pics below: Failed Antigravity AG Li battery, started a fire in my car! Failed Antigravity AG Li battery, started a fire in my car! Failed Antigravity AG Li battery, started a fire in my car!
One of the reasons that Li batteries are so power dense is the very small barrier space between individual cells but this requires extreme precision in assembly and careful control of sustained charge and discharge rates. If that barrier is breached then the battery is going to react like yours and the problem cascades as the failure between two cells creates heat that causes further failures. This is one of the reasons why some of the EU countries now are equipping first responders with huge tanks of water in which to "drown" EVs because of the tendency for a fire to restart after it was seemingly put under control.
There are a lot of applications where lithium type batteries are the best choice and some where they are effectively the only choice given size and weight constraints but where other less finicky technologies are acceptable think long and hard about using these types of batteries. And although fairly rare, it really is not a great idea to leave consumer products with these types of rechargeable batteries sitting on charge when you are not at home. Hover board fires were one of the more publicized incidents of fires resulting from questionable Li cells and chargers but quite a few different consumer items have had fires from failures primarily during charge mode. Battery fires aren't limited to these types of batteries of course but their power density, both in terms of available power and the problem of preventing cell to cell breach, imposes higher standards on manufacturing quality and customer usage.
One of the reasons that Li batteries are so power dense is the very small barrier space between individual cells but this requires extreme precision in assembly and careful control of sustained charge and discharge rates. If that barrier is breached then the battery is going to react like yours and the problem cascades as the failure between two cells creates heat that causes further failures. This is one of the reasons why some of the EU countries now are equipping first responders with huge tanks of water in which to "drown" EVs because of the tendency for a fire to restart after it was seemingly put under control.
There are a lot of applications where lithium type batteries are the best choice and some where they are effectively the only choice given size and weight constraints but where other less finicky technologies are acceptable think long and hard about using these types of batteries. And although fairly rare, it really is not a great idea to leave consumer products with these types of rechargeable batteries sitting on charge when you are not at home. Hover board fires were one of the more publicized incidents of fires resulting from questionable Li cells and chargers but quite a few different consumer items have had fires from failures primarily during charge mode. Battery fires aren't limited to these types of batteries of course but their power density, both in terms of available power and the problem of preventing cell to cell breach, imposes higher standards on manufacturing quality and customer usage.
- What surprised us, or shocked us, about my car's incident is that it wasn't even left on a trickle charger. It was just sitting in the builder's lot awaiting work.
Also...I run an Odyssey 680 in my Z4 and aside from an arguably short lifespan for battery memory it (2 of them actually) have acquitted themselves honorably over the past 10 years. It cut 32lbs (if memory serves) compared to my stock battery and they cost appx. $110. It doesn't have the cranking amps to service a 6L V8 but perhaps there is a larger version that would work? That would cut a lot weight for less $ than Li and without fire risk.
Because there has been new discussion about using AG Li batteries in Corvettes lately I felt obliged, as a matter of public safety, to share my experience with their product. I post it here as a matter of public awareness.
As much as I love the idea of AG's Li batteries I will not use them EVER after what happened in my Z4 M Coupe in 2016.
My BMW builder initially recommended them, having used them in his personal and customer race cars. So I had him install one in my Z4 M Coupe and left the car with him because he was going to do some dyno work later. The car sat for two weeks...then he suddenly called me - telling me that when he went out to get the car to start work he smelled smoke and when he opened the trunk he saw that the battery was smoking and the case was bulged out - failing! Luckily he found the problem then or MY CAR COULD HAVE BURNED TO THE GROUND!!!
AG's customer support was terrible at that time. Rarely was their phone picked up during business hours, and their voicemail was always full so I couldn't leave messages. Eventually I got someone, who thought a Z4 was a Porche, and kept insisting that the battery must have been installed incorrectly - which is ludicrous. Apparently they only honor their warranty if you first ship the battery to them (thus losing your evidence), and only if their obviously biased inspection shows that the fault was 100% theirs. I ended up dumping the problem on my builder, who refunded me.
In conclusion: I love the Li idea, but can't trust a company that almost burned my car down and doesn't stand by their customers.
See my pics below: Failed Antigravity AG Li battery, started a fire in my car!
First off I want to say thank you for your Post, I think this is a great opportunity to make this a "Teaching Moment" for all those interested in Antigravity Batteries and Lithium-Ion Starter Batteries.
I am sincerely sorry you have had a negative experience with Lithium Batteries and with Antigravity. I know if I was in your position, and was unfamiliar with the product and this happened I would be upset also. The images you show clearly indicate you had an occurance of what is known as "Thermal Runaway". Which is where the battery gets over-heated by either over-charging or being severely over-discharged then recharged quickly. The only other reason for this to occur is putting this battery on a Lead/Acid Charger. Those are the factors that create high-heat within the battery and then after over-heating the battery feeds on it's own energy. As you see from those images the results are high heat and the battery expanding dramatically.
It can be scary and I understand your fear of Lithium due to this, but your post has an extremely negative take on Lithium and portrays Antigravity Batteries as a unresponsive, irresponsible company making dangerous products. This is not accurate. You also allude to Lithium as a Public Safety issue. and you labeled your pictures as "Failed Antigravity AG Li battery, started a fire in my car!". Yet there was no indication of FIRE, or raw flame from that battery in your picture. YES it overheated and melted, yet you claim in you text for the images Antigravity started a fire in your Car... that is irresponsible and mis-leading. Additionally you have left a number of key factors out of your Post that would shed some light on what caused that Thermal Runaway. Again, I can understand you perspective due to this incident, but to blame all on Antigravity Batteries, and portray the product as being the reason for the incident does not accurately reflect the facts. But you absolutely had a Thermal Runaway incident. But let's explore the facts so the readers can digest the overall circumstances and come to know the truth about Lithium products because your statements are not reflective of this actual market.
1- Please note that the Battery you have shown in your post is NOT the Battery we are promoting here on the CorvetteForum. The battery in the Images you posted is a NON-PROTECTED version of our Battery which IS NOT intended for Passenger Cars. It is made WITHOUT a Battery Management System (BMS) which is the on-board Protection Circuit most of our Batteries have. This battery has a very specific use that is NOT for Passenger Cars such as your BMW Z4. If you had read the several posts we made as a Sponsor of the site you would have seen we are clearly stating the battery we are selling here is the Automotive Version, and that people should NOT run the UN-PROTECTED versions in Passenger cars since the Amp Hour Capacity is so low and can be over-discharged by a Car quickly which damages the Battery.
2- The Battery in your images is a Motorcycle/ Powersports/Race Car Battery. It is sold specifically for these type of Vehicles that don't require higher Amp Hour Capacities like a Passenger Car does. Additional this Battery in the images is EXCEPTIONALLY small and only weighs 3.1 lbs and has very little Amp Hours. That Battery is NOT listed in our Automotive Battery section on our website, and in NO WAY do we recommend that Battery for use in Passenger Cars. It's a Motorcycle Battery primarily, and on its webpage description it lists it's applications for V-Twin Motorcycles, and Race Cars. Again this is due to its low Amp Hour Capacity, and a Passenger car could deplete this battery very fast due to all the electronics, especially the BMWs which have very high parasitic draws on the battery. So it was absolutely an INCORRECT application for the Battery to be put in your BMW. Its like taking a knife to a sword fight. So there was incorrect selection of this battery by your builder or yourself for your BMW. We would never tell a Customer to use that battery in that application. . But that alone would not cause a Thermal Runaway incident.
3- We make several versions of our Lithium Batteries...yet your Builder chose the Battery that was NOT intended for a Passenger Cars. I have no idea what he was thinking being our website has a specific Automotive Battery section, but additionally our Users Manual specifically details that damage and fire could occur if the battery is mis-used, abused, over-discharged, or over-charged severely, or used in an incorrect application. . So this sheds a bit of light on the fact that the Builder had not read the Users Manual, or our Website Descriptions for the Battery and was not familiar with the applications for our Batteries. We cannot control what HE decided might work. We would NOT recommend that battery to him or you or anyone. Its much too small for that use.
4- The fact is that a Lithium Battery, such as our battery in your images, will NOT spontaneously go into Thermal Runaway without some external events and prior damage, for example by a severe over-discharge or leaving it on a Lead/Acid Battery Charger. It will not spontaneously expand or create heat WITHOUT there being some trigger in the form of current flow to or from it and after it has been damaged. Those are just the facts, it is a very stable chemistry of Lithium, and requires a damage incident to have a Thermal Runaway incident. We store these cells and the final built versions of the Batteries in our warehouse all year... if there was a chance of spontaneous combustion in the over 20,000 batteries we have in raw cells and in finished product in our warehouse we would have a dangerous issue on our hands. This is not the case.
5- Please note on your very first image that the Battery has large yellow warning label on it. That Warning Label is a summary of warnings on what to avoid to prevent damage and potential Thermal Runaway issues. We clearly state not to use a Lead/Acid Battery Charger, we state to check your charging system, we state to use the appropriate size battery for your use and other things. We go more deeply in the Users Manual about how to care for the battery and other Safety issues. So I believe your builder or yourself did not read the User's Manual or Warning Label, nor do sufficient research as to what is the best battery for your application. Clearly you would have had some concerns for use of that battery in a Passenger Car if you have looked at the Users Manual, and Warnings. We are very vested in Safety when using our products..
6- So while the incident is absolutely unfortunate, I would just wanted to point out the objective facts that encompass the entire circumstances you had to get the battery to a point of Thermal Runaway. Your post basically puts the complete fault of this incident on Antigravity Batteries without considering WHY your builder or yourself put such a small battery in the Car, a battery that on our website specifically says for use in Motorcycles and Race Cars, and is not in our Automotive Section. Yet you did NOT go with an Automotive Battery that would have the proper protections and adequate Amp Hours. So yes your Battery had a Thermal Runaway incident, yes I am bummed by this type of incident, but there are significant extraneous factors that the Builder or yourself should have considered.
In closing this response, I am not looking to argue with you. Your reality is accurate for you, and I am only trying to preset the overall issues in perspective instead of the one-sided argument against lithium and alluding to Antigravity as a bad company. We absolutely support all our products, but we do not have control over Customers who may choose to take a product outside it specified use. We have 4 phone lines and techs to talk to or to email.
Since Antigravity was brought up and presented in such a Negative light I wanted to state some fact about our company.
Antigravity Batteries has been in business since 2010. We were the first company to introduce the full Battery Management Systems (BMS) into Lithium-Ion Powersports/Motorsports Batteries which makes for the Safest longest life-cycle Lithium Battery on the market. We were the first company to innovate and bring the Lithium-Ion MINI-JUMP STARTER type product to Market in 2013 with our MICRO-START Product. Our MICRO-START XP-10 Mini Jump Starter product was awarded "BEST-RATED JUMP STARTER" by Consumer Report Magazine after their 6 month test against 14 competitor products.
Antigravity Battteries are in over 80,000 Street driven vehicles Cars and Motorcycles, we are in about 3x that many off-road vehicles. We have won 14 SEMA Global Media Awards for our innovative Starter Battery and MICRO-START Products. We were rated Best Jump-Starter by Petersons 4x4 Magazine as well as a number of other awards in the Industry. We are in Vehicles that have won over 48 Championships to date including Road Racing both Car and Motorcycles, Drifting, Global Time Attack Drag Racing. We have been in 3 vehicles that won the Baja 1000. We are even in TOP FUEL Boats (Nitrochondriac) and more. We have been in the last 3 Supercross and Motocross Championship winning bikes, and I could go on... My point is not to brag, but to show we are a legitimate company producing an exceptionally safe Starter Batteries and MICRO-STARTs that hundreds of thousands are using.
If anyone has any questions about Lithium and its safety I would be happy to answer openly and honestly. I will not engage in flaming, or argumentative post. We are here as a forum sponsor, and to market our latest products for AUTOMOBILES, and to educate those interested or just curious about the products.
Last edited by Antigravity; 07-01-2019 at 02:23 PM.
06-29-2019, 05:15 PM
My experience with AG Li car battery
