Sidney004

Anyone try these yet? Sintered metal, is this the next big thing? I believe they are a French F1 carbon-carbon brake supplier. Little to no bed in required.


"Carbone Lorraine brake pads are made from Sintered Metal. This brake pad material offers superior braking quality in all areas: durability, power, feeling, and efficiency in wet weather. The RC6 compound brake pad does not contain any organic compounds so does not melt or compress when under pressure and high temperatures. This gives a stiffer pedal and better brake modulation.

The Carbone Lorraine RC6 Brake pad compound is designed for all race car applications. The RC6 Brake pad compound has an average friction coefficient of μ=0.5 and are very effective from cold, giving excellent initial bite yet will still not deteriorate in braking over 1000 °C.

The Carbone Lorraine RC6 Endurance is a new high performance brake pad that offers similar grip to the RC6 brake pad (friction coefficient of μ=0.46). The RC6 Endurance brake pads offer an unmatched low wear rate which can offer a large advantage in 6 - 24hr endurance racing."

http://www.essexparts.com/shop/brake...-overview.html

96CollectorSport

Sounds like those pads would be very hard on rotors.

I don't see those pads availible for Corvette sizes C5 or C6Z, I even searched for StopTech applications and found nothing. Any info on pricing?

Sidney004

Indicating availability in C5,C6, C6 Z06 sizes in England in RC6 and RC5+ compounds, so I would assume they are available here as well.

http://www.cl-brakes.co.uk/index.php...rake-pads.html

AU N EGL

IIRC F1 carbon brakes pads and rotors come from Hitco in California or Brembo / Honeywell in Indiana

jritt

Hi Guys,
I was planning to make some announcements on this pad line very soon. Late last year we did a brief stint of sponsorship on this forum to test the waters, and we'll be resuming long-term sponsorship in the next couple of weeks. I'm working on a package with the forum owner now.

We've been working with CL Brakes over the last year or so in professional racing. We've run CL on many different race cars...asphalt, dirt, sports cars...up to and including the RC8 compound on NASCAR Sprint Cup CoT. We've had extremely positive results and feedback on their various compounds. They've also been used for some time in diverse racing environments in Europe, including Sebastien Loeb's car in WRC.

On the aftermarket side, I've had the CL compounds on roughly two dozen road/track cars over the past year...vettes, 911's, elise, evo, sti, viper, M3, S2000, mustangs, etc. I've run them extensively on my own C5 Z06. I wanted to make sure we had plenty of miles under all conditions on these pads before going public with them. CL has been running these compounds in Europe for some time, but I wanted to make sure they are appropriate and suited to the North American market. We've done some development work with them on some new compounds as well.

Last year I sold my old StopTech kit to a fellow corvette forum member, Fred Turner. I included CL pads with the kit to get his feedback. It's not up on our site yet, but he has really been enjoying the pads. So yes, we will have the StopTech six, four, and two piston shapes available at launch, as well as Wilwood and Brembo.

We will be offering all of the CL compounds in the C5 and C6 shapes, including the C6Z shape.

The only thing up on our site at this time is the actual pad data...no pricing or applications are listed. That information is prepared, and just needs to be activated.

Based on the composition of these pads, that was one of my concerns as well. I know we aftermarket guys don't have a bottomless well of $ for consumables (pads, rotors, fluid), like the pro race teams seem to have. It's also one of the reasons I've been adamant about such a lengthy testing regime prior to release. The reality is, these pads are actually proving amazingly easy on rotors. Some of our time attack testers from last season have commented here:http://www.essexparts.com/brake-pads...s/cl-customers

Because of my role as a brake guy in the industry, I've tried many, many pad materials over the past decade. The CL pads have been a real eye-opener on my car. Although they are technically a pure race pad and we recommend them as such, I've driven them on the street, track, canyons/mountains and in rain, cold, and extreme heat. They have a number of very unique characteristics that I haven't seen in other pads. Just about every one who has tried them is asking for more, which is a good sign that they are indeed appropriate for our market. Our long-term data collection and testing has shown us that they really don't require as much fiddling or preparation as other pads. Because of this, we've used the phrase, "the most user-friendly brake pads ever developed" to describe them.

Finally, I'm in the process of putting together a sponsorship/contingency program for these pads to support amateur racers...have to support all of my old corvetteforum peeps!

jritt

One more note...at Carbone Lorraine's request, we will be marketing their pads under the CL Brakes name. We didn't go into this too much, but I believe this decision was simply made for simplicity of pronunciation in the English language.

For a guy like me that has heard approximately 743 different pronunciations of the word Pagid over the past decade, this is a welcome change.

0Todd TCE

Are there plans for some more serious race compounds also? Pads with a Cf of .46 or .50 are on quite the short side of what many of the more hard core guys are familiar with. This falls in the "performance street" range.

jritt

Todd,
These are absolutely serious race compounds. The RC8 compound has a Cf of 0.6+ according to CL, and it has been run successfully in Sprint Cup and WRC in 2009. There isn't a much greater test for brakes than Sprint Cup at the Glen. The RC8 has TONS of bite. I would be completely shocked if the Cf of the RC8 is not enough for just about anyone. I tend to like a lower pedal effort and a lot of bite, and I actually prefer the Cf of the RC6. From my experience, even the RC5+ has more bite than many pads from other manufacturers that claim higher Cf numbers.

You can see graphs for the various compounds here:
http://www.essexparts.com/brake-pads...akes/compounds

On our site, I've used the Mu graphs provided by CL. That said, I'm not crazy about using a straight Cf # to characterize pads. I usually don't lean too heavily on these graphs when comparing across manufacturers. All of the manufacturers do their own testing and claim their own numbers. That's one of the reasons we have our own brake dynos in-house. The numbers claimed by manufacturers and what we see aren't always exactly the same. Many times our numbers and their numbers are quite different, and a pad claimed to have a higher Cf than another doesn't pan out that way in our testing.

I find this situation very similar to the constant battles we see over engine dynos...they all measure differently. I believe the dyno plots published by a given manufacturer are a good tool to compare relative Cf across that pad manufacturer's range (assuming they test all of their pads the same way). That is the case with the CL pads. The RC8 definitely has a higher Cf than the RC6, which has a slightly higher Cf than the RC6E, and so on. I've run them back to back,and you can definitely feel the differences through your foot.

0Todd TCE

Thanks for the follow up. A very fair and honest evaluation of this situation I confess.

My concerns were centered mainly from the data provided in post number one. The data stated of .46-.50 as you probably know is "questionable" (I say questionable as your reference to how things are tested and compared is indeed relevant) compared to more known and proven compounds.

The proposed track pad RC8 will likely prove to be your bread and butter for those who are more serious about their track day use compared to the lower Cf or Mu of the others.

fatbillybob

Hey Jritt,

Is there a cheap brake dyno/lathe we racers could buy that will turn a rotor and help us bed-in pads and rotors. It is a real pain for us racers with non-streetlegal cars to bed in brakes and rotors on track. Its work under non-ideal conditions and sucks up tracktime and or means a test day dragging our cars to the track.

63Corvette

Well now, I can't agree that these are the "Next Big Thing!"
My 1963 Z06 Corvette came stock with "Sintered Metal (IRON) friction material".

These "pads" need LOTS of heat to generate friction. First they don't stop..............then they pull (but never to the same side consistently) then there is a hard pedal but no stopping..............then the heat generated by the pad to drum interface either A) melts the pad off of the backing plate (THE PADS ARE SPOT WELDED TO THE BRAKE SHOE) , or B) the pad welds itself to the drum.
Now I am fully aware that these are modern DISC brakes, but sintered iron still reacts exactly the same way now that it did 40 plus years ago.

jritt

If you read some of the data on our site about the manufacturer, they have a lot of experience in a lot of different areas/environments. I think that experience has brought sintered technology a long way forward in the past 40 years! As with most things these days, a fresh look at an old technology can be a game changer. New manufacturing processes, new complementary materials, and new forms of application, can completely redefine whether a technology is completely viable or completely worthless. We see this in just about everything. For example, my first titanium lacrosse stick back in 1993 snapped like twig when it was cold and took a good whack. I switched back to aluminum. However, my latest titanium stick weighs far less than my original one, and has taken an incredible beating while remaining more or less unscathed...different alloying, different production techniques, etc. In this example, the technology was marginal when first introduced, but is now a no-brainer since the kinks have been ironed out.

'The next big thing' may not be an appropriate term. A fresh look at solving some old problems is probably a better way to describe the situation. I can assure you that these pads definitely do NOT need lots of heat to generate friction. These pads bite like crazy from the very first stop cold.

Understood and agreed. It's really tough to just go by the manufacturer numbers. It's unfortunate that the average consumer only has this type of data to use when making choices.
Based on my personal experience, the Cf of the RC8's and RC6's is higher than the bulk of the other popular compounds I've used over the years...PFC01, Hawk DTC-70, Blue, Pagid Black, Pagid Yellow, DS3000, etc. The RC6E's are right in there with the RC6 as well. I'd put the RC5+ a bit higher on Cf than something like the DS2500.

For very powerful, fairly heavy cars like ours, the RC8, RC6, and RC6E would all be appropriate front and rear pad choices for serious track duty. It would just depend on what type of setup and feel you prefer. If you like really high Cf, RC8 is the choice on the front. If you like a little less rear brake, the RC6 would be a good rear choice with the RC8 up front. RC6 front/rear would work, RC6 with RC6E or RC5+ rear would work...RC6E all around, RC6E / RC5+...lots of options.

For example, my main Subie Time Attack tester last year prefers RC6E front, and RC6 rear...he likes a little more rear brake to rotate the car, so he shifted bias that way in this manner.

If I had no experience with this type of pad and owned a track day or racing corvette, I'd probably begin by trying the RC6 front and rear. Believe it or not I actually think the RC8's jump up in Cf over other existing race pad options could be too much for some people to wrap their head around. They are pretty silly.

I don't think people realize that under the most severe race/brake conditions in pro racing, a pad like PFC01 is viewed as a low bite pad, and used more often on the rear of the car. For example, on heavy braking tracks in Sprint Cup, the bulk of the guys are using Mintex F2R or Polymatrix, with a handful on Raybestos and PFC compounds.

Bill Dearborn

I agree Sintered Metallic brake linings have been around a long time. Besides the Vette, 1960s Pontiacs could be ordered with an optional 8 lug wheel that had special drums and used sintered linings. I used to have them on my 1968 Olds. Never experienced any pulling with them but the car sure could stop despite weighing 4200 lbs.

Bill

rustyguns

how do they compare to the EBC sintered pads?

J Ritt

I honestly don't know. I thought EBC only made sintered pads for motorcycles. I personally don't know of anyone who has ever used EBC sintered pads on a car before.

Do you have a web link for the pads to which you are referring? Thanks.

J Ritt

fatbillybob,
Unfortunately, I don't have anything for you to solve this problem at this time. Essex currently only pre-beds pads and AP rotors for pro race teams. Sorry!

J Ritt

Hi Guys,
I wanted to let everyone know that we now have various compounds of the CL pads on the shelf in base C5 and C6 caliper shapes. We also have them in the appropriate shapes for many popular aftermarket calipers. As you can see, the initial customer feedback has been off the charts, including one of our vette brethren. We're already collecting wins and record lap times on them!

I'm offering some strong incentives for any early adopters of these pads. If you need new race pads or just want to try something different, please contact me. I am extremely confident you will not be disappointed with these pads.

0Randy@DRM

Send me over a price for a 7793.18mm and 7767

Randy

Don Keefhardt

Hell...THAT'S your problem...real lacrosse sticks are made of wood.

drivinhard

I've got an old (NIB) set of Polymaxtrix "A" pads still on the shelf, I understood these WERE a Raybestos compound? "Raybestos" is etched on the backing plate.

I was surprised to hear one of Gary @ hardbar's reports (maybe from last year) of many cup teams running poly "A" pads. seems like it was on one of the lists from the glen he posted on what the breakdown was on the teams on which calipers and pads they were using.