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I think so but all that water mist on the rotor and caliper is probably not a good idea
Originally Posted by parsonsj
I replaced the torx head bolts with 12 pt bolts and Nordloc washers. Van Steel sells them as a kit.
Thanks for the tip. Check with Rich today and he said just need to replace the bolts.
Speaking of the devil. I had one heck of a time keeping up with Rich at Thunderhill today. Mandatory point by did not help and couple times I drop back a bit because I was getting pelted by rocks from Rich's car thinking I will be able to quickly catch up .... boy am I wrong! Great driving Rich and it was fun.
The rotor temp still went over 1000F at high speed and short consecutive brake zones but quickly drop below 900F unlike before which stayed over 1000F for a while. Still locking up the brakes and almost ran off the track couple times easing up on brakes to avoid lock up. Really hate these CCM - it's all or nothing for my car's setup
Here is the video of the chase. At end of video I tried to swerve to avoid hitting a cone at the middle of the track (still nail it!) ... at 133 mph!
St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13
I can see the rotors hitting those temps under braking while your on the pedal.....a car on track should see that, and higher under racing use. I can see pad/rotor surface hitting 1000-1600 degree's if not slightly hotter....what is a concern is how hot is the caliper getting?
I can see the rotors hitting those temps under braking while your on the pedal.....a car on track should see that, and higher under racing use. I can see pad/rotor surface hitting 1000-1600 degree's if not slightly hotter....what is a concern is how hot is the caliper getting?
Calipers are not getting that hot at all and brake pedal never got soft.
The brake spindle cooling duct did it's job and rotor temps are way lower - in the past the rotor temp will go over 1000F and stay there for couple seconds before it drop below 900F and now it immediate drop below 900F right after brake zone and go below 700F after few seconds. Wish I could say lower rotor temp translate to better brake behavior for my CCM setup - it's just as bad as before. ICE mode at west side turn 7 and 9 almost every lap where brake pedal become hard and slap my foot back and mess up throttle blip when downshift and locking up at almost every brake zone. After two days of this brake mess it start to play with my mind and I start to brake much earlier and car become unsettle after locking up and almost went off track at couple places esp turn 14 on east side.
Felt bad holding up Rich and Werks and not able to mix it up with the two fastest guy of the day. Rich was running CCM with OEM brake pads with same spindle cooling, R6 and LG coilover and he had no brake lock up issue. Werks had moton, spindle cooling with LG GT2 front splitter, conti GT-O slick (same as my car with has less grip than R6 and stiffer side walls for high G oval track) and had better braking but lock up and ICE mode here and there and nothing like what I experienced. I had similar trouble with OEM pads in the past ... will likely go back to iron rotor
Wish I could say lower rotor temp translate to better brake behavior for my CCM setup - it's just as bad as before. ICE mode at west side turn 7 and 9 almost every lap where brake pedal become hard.....
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Rich was running CCM with OEM brake pads with same spindle cooling, R6 and LG coilover and he had no brake lock up issue. Werks had moton, spindle cooling with LG GT2 front splitter, conti GT-O slick (same as my car with has less grip than R6 and stiffer side walls for high G oval track) and had better braking but lock up and ICE mode here and there and nothing like what I experienced.
If possible, have you tried adjusting your shocks? You having trouble and your friends don't (or not as bad) may further point to your car's damping characteristics.
Your issue sounds somewhat familiar to something I was experiencing in my C5Z06 although my issue wasn't as bad. In a particular braking zone, the front end felt like it was skipping across the tops of bumps and wasn't braking very well. I talked to a few friends of mine and they never had issues in that area of the track. We all have different coilover setups though. A few clicks on my front shocks and problem went away. I later walked the track and found that the track surface was bumpier in that area than I had realized.
If possible, have you tried adjusting your shocks? You having trouble and your friends don't (or not as bad) may further point to your car's damping characteristics.
Your issue sounds somewhat familiar to something I was experiencing in my C5Z06 although my issue wasn't as bad. In a particular braking zone, the front end felt like it was skipping across the tops of bumps and wasn't braking very well. I talked to a few friends of mine and they never had issues in that area of the track. We all have different coilover setups though. A few clicks on my front shocks and problem went away. I later walked the track and found that the track surface was bumpier in that area than I had realized.
Food for thought....
Yes, very good suggestion and my friends and I also thought damping could play a role in the lock up but it was not locking up at all when I was running iron rotors using same slicks and running the 5 miles track shown below (after tires warm up which takes two laps). The difference between iron and CCM was 10 lbs heavier front rotor each corners and 3 lbs heavier ear rear corners - and different brake pads of course. Could that explain the lock up ... maybe. My coil over is set at only 4 to 5 clicks from soft both compression and rebound so not much more room to move. Wish I have a track in my back yard so I can just jump in the car and test out the shocks
Damping aside I was getting ICE mode at short burst back to back brake zones where the brake pedal becomes hard (car think it hit ice so it limit your brake pressure input by firming up the brake pressure) and kick my foot back and make blip and down shift almost impossible. I finally gave up early afternoon and just pack up. I got all the "GO" pieces pretty much figure out and now really need to iron out the brake issue .... as in going back to iron
I hear you there. If you have the patience to wait, it might be worth adjusting your shocks before buying new rotors.
I have light weight iron rotors by RB sitting here and ready to be put back on. Used them last month and they were fantastic. Only went back to CCM to do some testing with new endless W007 brake pads.
I think softening the socks will help but how much is hard to say and I doubt it will eliminate ICE mode. The problem with trying out the CCM again is that if it does not work it is a back breaking procedure to swap out the rotors. Caliper bolts are hard to get on and off and by the time I am done I won't have much strength left over to drive the car
Do you know how the coeff of friction and the friction/temp curves of the f/r pads compare to OEM f/r pads? I've found that the c5 system is tolerant of sticky tires but has a limited tolerance of increased braking force (on the caliper/rotor/pad side of the equation). If your pads are stickier than oem that may be enough to make the abs unhappy.
Do you know how the coeff of friction and the friction/temp curves of the f/r pads compare to OEM f/r pads? I've found that the c5 system is tolerant of sticky tires but has a limited tolerance of increased braking force (on the caliper/rotor/pad side of the equation). If your pads are stickier than oem that may be enough to make the abs unhappy.
I don't know the numbers but endless W007 has significantly more initial bite than OEM brake pads for CCM setup and that maybe an issue. Werks also ran W007 front and his car seem to brake well with occasional lock up and ICE mode but no where as disruptive as my setup. We both ran Continental GT-O slicks and he has more down force and use Moton coilovers and I have Ohlins
I don't know the numbers but endless W007 has significantly more initial bite than OEM brake pads for CCM setup and that maybe an issue. Werks also ran W007 front and his car seem to brake well with occasional lock up and ICE mode but no where as disruptive as my setup. We both ran Continental GT-O slicks and he has more down force and use Moton coilovers and I have Ohlins
Last weekend I ran using the W007's on the front and didn't have any ice mode occurrences. I did have ABS lockups but most of it was my footwork that caused it.
How about your tire heights? Are they equal height front and rear? Once I ran tires that were the same height and it seemed like all I had to do was touch the brake pedal and I was into the ABS. It may have been just coincidence that day but it's worth a thought.
Last weekend I ran using the W007's on the front and didn't have any ice mode occurrences. I did have ABS lockups but most of it was my footwork that caused it.
How about your tire heights? Are they equal height front and rear? Once I ran tires that were the same height and it seemed like all I had to do was touch the brake pedal and I was into the ABS. It may have been just coincidence that day but it's worth a thought.
Yes, good suggestion too but when I was running iron rotors with same tire height there was no lock up once tire heat up ....
Last weekend I ran using the W007's on the front and didn't have any ice mode occurrences. I did have ABS lockups but most of it was my footwork that caused it.
How about your tire heights? Are they equal height front and rear? Once I ran tires that were the same height and it seemed like all I had to do was touch the brake pedal and I was into the ABS. It may have been just coincidence that day but it's worth a thought.
Note Mikes comments above, plus as he mentioned I'm running the exact same tires (both type and sizes) with CCM and the W007's and I did not run into the same amount of ABS related issues as he did. So tire size is not the issue, I personally think that if anything it's going to be related to damping which I mentioned to him when we were at the track but as he mentioned he did not have any ABS related issues when running iron rotors so personally I'm at a loss.
Note Mikes comments above, plus as he mentioned I'm running the exact same tires (both type and sizes) with CCM and the W007's and I did not run into the same amount of ABS related issues as he did. So tire size is not the issue, I personally think that if anything it's going to be related to damping which I mentioned to him when we were at the track but as he mentioned he did not have any ABS related issues when running iron rotors so personally I'm at a loss.
Wasn't sure if he meant exact same tire or simply the same compound. 650Front/710Rear?
Maybe it's just time for some new tires lol.
Calipers are not getting that hot at all and brake pedal never got soft.
The brake spindle cooling duct did it's job and rotor temps are way lower - in the past the rotor temp will go over 1000F and stay there for couple seconds before it drop below 900F and now it immediate drop below 900F right after brake zone and go below 700F after few seconds. Wish I could say lower rotor temp translate to better brake behavior for my CCM setup - it's just as bad as before. ICE mode at west side turn 7 and 9 almost every lap where brake pedal become hard and slap my foot back and mess up throttle blip when downshift and locking up at almost every brake zone. After two days of this brake mess it start to play with my mind and I start to brake much earlier and car become unsettle after locking up and almost went off track at couple places esp turn 14 on east side.
Felt bad holding up Rich and Werks and not able to mix it up with the two fastest guy of the day. Rich was running CCM with OEM brake pads with same spindle cooling, R6 and LG coilover and he had no brake lock up issue. Werks had moton, spindle cooling with LG GT2 front splitter, conti GT-O slick (same as my car with has less grip than R6 and stiffer side walls for high G oval track) and had better braking but lock up and ICE mode here and there and nothing like what I experienced. I had similar trouble with OEM pads in the past ... will likely go back to iron rotor
What a blast. That was one of the best track days ever and it was fun seeing you, Ron and I playing a little cat and mouse.
Thanks to LG Motorsports and their suspension pieces (coil overs, sways and mono *****), along with the spindle ducts and carbon ceramic brakes, the car was working better than ever. The CCM brakes were flawless for me all day, even when I went a little deep down the front straight a time or two
It makes the day a lot more fun when we can get a couple good drivers in fast cars out there to mix it up with. We need to get more days like that.
Mike, you do know that those bolts you were referring to that require an initial torque setting and then rotation are a one time use only bolt, right? Once you take them out, you're supposed to throw them away and use a new one. The angle in the torque spec actually makes the bolt stretch, which is what gives it the holding power. Once it has been stretched once, the consistency is gone and you can't trust it.
Richie, can you clarify for me what bolts are being talked about? The ball joint nuts are described as being torqued 22 foot pounds and then turned in addition to that. Do you mean those nuts? Or, are you referring to the hub bolts that are simply torqued but may stretch? I'm not following how the ball joint bolt would be replaceable. Perhaps, I missed something else being referred to.
What a blast. That was one of the best track days ever and it was fun seeing you, Ron and I playing a little cat and mouse.
Thanks to LG Motorsports and their suspension pieces (coil overs, sways and mono *****), along with the spindle ducts and carbon ceramic brakes, the car was working better than ever. The CCM brakes were flawless for me all day, even when I went a little deep down the front straight a time or two
It makes the day a lot more fun when we can get a couple good drivers in fast cars out there to mix it up with. We need to get more days like that.
Yes we will run 5 mile again - it's end of year so 5 miles is hard to come by. Ron and I should be closer to you next time ... we hope
My goal is to get below below 3:20 and I will be happy with a 3:19.8. I still don't know how Bill did a 3:13 shown below - just amazing!
Richie, can you clarify for me what bolts are being talked about? The ball joint nuts are described as being torqued 22 foot pounds and then turned in addition to that. Do you mean those nuts? Or, are you referring to the hub bolts that are simply torqued but may stretch? I'm not following how the ball joint bolt would be replaceable. Perhaps, I missed something else being referred to.
--Dan
me too, using the twelve point in the bottom hole creates a clearance issue with the lower ball joint nut also very hard to get a wrench on it or remove it the next time
10-23-2014, 08:19 AM
