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I bought a Delco tag for the passenger car generator in my '61 along with the mounting rivets - date code and number correct. Cut the heads off the rivets and JB-Welded the tag onto the generator. Had nothing to do with economics - just aesthetics. It looked bad under the hood without that IMO - I have a rebuilt Corvette date-code correct generator in my 'spares locker' but the one on the car looks fine now and runs perfectly so its staying.
If I sell the car (and remember) I'll disclose it and include the second generator. Its a $175 item; not like a restamped motor.
If someone will tell me where to turn myself in I'll surrender peacefully, FBI; local police; Department of Homeland Security. Hopefully I'll have internet access while incarcerated.
Geez, make this stop already!
But aren't they linked? Its economic, because if you deceive someone into thinking the car has its "born with" engine - they pay MORE for it... So isn't that an example of "lack of morals?"
The reason numbers are changed/re-stamped is for deceptive purposes. Either we are deceiving ourselves (which, is not inherently a bad thing) or deceiving other people (which IS a bad thing.
I don't know how cars are judged at events where such things matter. But If you have a re-stamped block, and have to tell them its re-stamped... why re-stamp it at all? While the original re-stamper may have the most honest of intentions... there is no guarantee that the next owner, let alone 5 more owners down the road will have the same honest intentions.
Now, if you have good documentation, and loose # due to a block decking... that is entirely different... and probably another topic altogether...
When you run in circles where those numbers are important for judging, status, brag rights.. whatever, you are going to run the risk of being on the receiving end of that deceiving.
Personally, I can barely afford the cost of admission into the Corvette Brotherhood tent, so flying with the numbers eagles in the upper echelon is certainly out of the question (though I respect what they have done for the good of all of us in the hobby).
Give me a driver with a NOM any day... something to bang on in the garage and drive in the rain. Stop by the dairy queen and let my 10 year old boy get a big cone on a hot day and let em' eat in in the car on the way home!
We, are making memories...
we certainly are
You were making perfect sense until you said the twerp could eat that ice cream in the vette. Are you nuts! No ice cream in the vette!!
I don't think we draw the line......you (or each of us) do. :
This is why there are passionate debates about restamping - there is no WE - no consensus, only groups of thought, including those with bad intent.
NCRS probably constitutes the biggest "WE" as their position is thought through and written down. The rest is mostly vibrations in air, or random internet postings, like this.
Anytime there is value attached to originality, e.g. coins, stamps, antique firearms, fine art, etc., there will be counterfeiting.
This is why there are passionate debates about restamping - there is no WE - no consensus, only groups of thought, including those with bad intent.
NCRS probably constitutes the biggest "WE" as their position is thought through and written down. The rest is mostly vibrations in air, or random internet postings, like this.
Anytime there is value attached to originality, e.g. coins, stamps, antique firearms, fine art, etc., there will be counterfeiting.
DING DING DING DING DING!!! We have a winner.
That is exactly the point I am making.
I am not trying to change anyone's mind.
Personally, I have no issues with restoration parts, including restoration engines. If the re-stamped engine is typical of factory production, then it will pass the judging process.
However, just be aware of the legal issues associated with stamping VIN derivatives.
Now, passing it on as an original engine, with the intent to increase the value / desirability, is a whole separate issue.
About this full disclosure thing. At some point in the sales chain the full disclosure stops. I had an F3 Brabham. I sold it and then encountered the car about 10 years later. It was now a F2 Brabham. The price had just about doubled.
About 4 owners came between me and the current owner. One of the previous owners had destroyed all the original paperwork and created a new history. The current owner believes the new history. Most likely the owner before him believed it as well. Neither one is responsible for the fraud.
The person who created this F2 car has long since disappeared. The history of the car is now that of an F2 car. The current owner will be happy to disclose everything. He even has the paperwork (fraudulent as it may be) to back up his statement.
Next example. What do we do about the Bloomington Gold cars that are taken apart after they get the BG award. There's a tradition (and we don't know how large it is) to remove all the original parts from a BG car and replace them with repro parts. You can make a fair amount of money doing this.
Now along comes a buyer who wants a BG/Top Flight car. They pay extra for these certificates. They don't realize that the car has been changed since the judging took place. Is anyone at fault here? Does anyone even know this has taken place.
No. The leading zero did not start until mid January, 1960. This is an August 1959 engine (for 1960 model year), even if it isn't a real engine pad stamp, or is it?
I think it clearly illustrates that 9 out of 10 owners don't care about true numbers cars which I've always maintained. Keep that in mind next time you invest a lot of money in one with the idea of flipping it to make a buck.
I think it clearly illustrates that 9 out of 10 owners don't care about true numbers cars which I've always maintained. Keep that in mind next time you invest a lot of money in one with the idea of flipping it to make a buck.
100%.
Getting all 'caught up' in the faction of people that is/are worried about every number and little thing is not my thing at all. Not writing that if people are into that sort thing it bothers me...well it does not. If it makes them happy to obsess and get their are SO PERFECT...who am I to judge them. I have very few customers who are members of this faction. And like I tell them..."You know...your Corvette is only original once". So it truly depends on 'where you want to draw the line'.
Why would someone spend $ 150,000.00 or more to buy, and then painstakingly restore a C-1 or C-2 to absolute perfection, AND then not replicate the stamp pad finish and number if needed?
Every single piece on the car is new or renewed. The paint is flawless.
The entire car indeed looks as if it did in fact just roll off of the assembly line.
To then postulate that the stamping is some fraudulent act, or some intent to deceive is present is simply so far off of the mark it just does not stand up in the light of day.
As a long time NCRS member, I vividly recall the discussion and dissent when the idea of legitimatizing re-stamps first surfaced, was discussed, and finally accepted.
I see no evidence of harm from the decision itself.
In fact, I see the opposite. Cars have been flawlessly restored and serve as benchmark examples that help others bring their car to the same level of perfection if that is what they would like to do.
To ascribe something sinister or fraudulent to such activity is a contorted stretch of logic, at best.
It matters not that someone is for or against such restorations, but it is those restorations that firmly build the pricing foundation of all of our cars, restored, modified, customized, or whatever. Without those full size scale models that travel often on trailers, the value of all of the cars would be lower. I also drive, and see many others drive their Top Flight cars, and I do not even own a trailer.
A high tide raises all boats, not just some.
Fraud is fraud, and occurs regardless of one's feeling on numbers restoration.
Turning a 327 into a 427 435 happened long before the change in heart on numbers, and will continue regardless.
Just because there are thieves and low life's in Corvettedom, does not mean that a guy or gal who restores a car to perfection becomes a thief or a low life.
My life and happiness are improved because I, in 2015, can see, and show my son, exactly how these cars looked when I was 14, and drooling all over the place at the sight of these machines of wonder.
So I do not much care about that pad except to show my son where it is and explain what it means.
I have been in C-4's now for so long I have become accustomed to all of the available documentation that is readily available and defies any question of phoniness. Yet, how will my son ever be able to prove beyond a shadow of doubt, that the LT-5 in my car is indeed the one it was born with? While we know it to be so, and experts may certify it to be, how will someone 25 years from now, really, really know for sure?
While everyone else tries to wrestle this topic to the ground, I will be driving the car of my dreams.
Marty
NCRSZR1 (NJ)
95PACER (NJ)
(my) DADSRIV (NJ)
Last edited by DRM500RUBYZR-1; 02-27-2015 at 07:44 AM.
Reason: zpllink
02-26-2015, 08:03 AM
100%.
