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Sudden lifter / Rocker noise - potential causes?

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Old 11-26-2015, 04:01 AM
  #21  
Imothph
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Originally Posted by Chucknorbid
Don't give up. If you have to pull the motor apart to figure it out. You could let us know what was wrong and save a lot of people the same grief. I am a retired Gm mechanic and the problems I ran into I could not even count. .........The point is there is a solution. Just don't give up.
I know, but this is the single most frustrating build I've ever encountered. I've literally ran every test and heck, even learned a few new ones, and this motor still refuses to run like it should. This is the exact thing I feared when I pulled the old L48 - It was tired, smokey and had all the horse power of an elderly pack mule, but it was 100% reliable. I've turned my corvette into a unreliable garage ornament when it used to be a faithful stand-by. She may not have made much noise, and sure, had a hard time getting out of her own way at times, but never griped or left me tearing my hair out.

In many ways the engine acts as though it lean, yet fouls plugs with carbon - #3 happens to be the worst. 99% of the running time has been at idle though, So perhaps the plugs should look a bit rich. Its also started spiting at me - shut her down, half second run-on and some fuel gets tossed out the carb. Not every time and not much when it does...but still, its added another annoying trait. Its one step forward, two steps back with this engine. Despite all my efforts, the timing mark still wanders 2 degrees or so at random and my friend the ever-present miss has gotten better at times, worse at times, but never left for good. I'm going to look at my transition slots, make sure I don't have the throttle blades open too far (motor needs to idle at around 1000rpm) if the blades are open too much, that might make the main circuit come in at idle and make things too rich, it would also explain the spit / run on that happens. I may also throw on a fuel regulator to make sure I'm only getting 6 PSI to the carb.

I've all but given up on fixing the timing wander - there's nothing left to check - Three separate distributors, four caps, three different coils, two different modules, three sets of wires, three sets of plugs, shimmed and re-shimmed distributor gear, tested and added motor ground wires and finally a test on the timing chain (it passed) - all to no avail. I also adjusted and re-adjusted the valve train, changed two new carbs (One Edelbrock, one Holley) confirmed good voltage to the hot wire for the coil (14.3V consistently) and no signs of carbon trace or other grounding out inside the cap. Aside from the miss, I thought perhaps the timing wander was just the light, but I tried two lights - same result. It does get worse depending on where I clip the lead to the plug wire, but its the same result with three different wires.

Tomorrow I plan to check the transition slots, add the fuel regulator and if it bothers to run well enough, I'll try reset the timing curve (need to reset the mechanical now that I switched distributor....again....). If I get that far, I'll take her out for only the second time in the two months since install and see if I can clear anything up with some higher speed / duration driving rather than just idle.

If this keeps up, there will be a 78 corvette with a $7000 motor / transmission at the bottom of Lake Washington.
Old 11-26-2015, 08:46 AM
  #22  
diehrd
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The timing can be affected by RPM .. What I mean is if your at 1500 rpm and you drop rpm at all the timing is going to lower itself as well .

So could your mis-fire be the cause of your timing movement ? I think it is worth putting on the table.

Have you checked for vac leaks and made 100% sure the intake is sealed to head , carb to intake is sealed .
Old 11-26-2015, 10:17 AM
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Why is your idle so high.Does this motor have a super radical cam? Your timing wander could be the advance weights starting to come in at such a high idle.Did you adjust valves with engine running? If so this not the way to do it.How that procedure was ever started I don't know. I argued with a guy one time about that procedure and had to give an example.I said to him do you think the guys at the engine plant running these engines with valve covers off and adjusting the valves? They would be soaked with oil after a 8 hour shift and the mess would be unbelievable. The factory manuals do not use that procedure and I have never done it. Here is the factory procedure. # 1 TDC compression stroke Adjust Ex 1,3,4,8 Int 1,2,5,7 Rotate motor 1 turn back to 0 TDC this brings # 6 to TDC on compresson stroke.Adjust Ex 2,5,6,7 Int 3,4,6,8.When adjusting valves tighten to 0 lash and put 1 turn on nut and lock your poly lock. Some people use 1/4-1/2-3/4. I have always used the 1 turn and had no problems. I would start there. Next I would static time the engine at 10 Deg BTC. Do this by setting balancer to 10 deg BTC on compression stroke on the timing tab.Make sure your rotor is pointing to #1 .If using electronic adjust dist rotor vane where it just goes past the pickup magnet. If using points isolate the points from the system an hook a Omh meter across the point arm and the point body.With the points closed rotate the dist until the meter just breaks connection. This will put you at the 10 deg BTC +/- a deg.Recheck the firing order. I know you know all this stuff but I always go to the basics in order. Next I would plug all vacuum sources. Start the engine and dial in timing at 10 deg TDC and try to get it to idle at 750-800. The plug fouling is fuel or oil?
Old 11-26-2015, 11:56 AM
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With the c.r. at 9.4 it will need 15/20 degrees initial on the tag. If you dont start with this number youll have all kinds of tuning problems.

Harry
Old 11-26-2015, 02:57 PM
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[QUOTE=diehrd;1590983077]The timing can be affected by RPM .. What I mean is if your at 1500 rpm and you drop rpm at all the timing is going to lower itself as well .

So could your mis-fire be the cause of your timing movement ? I think it is worth putting on the table.

Have you checked for vac leaks and made 100% sure the intake is sealed to head , carb to intake is sealed .

I absolutely think the timing movement and miss are related, the issue is sort of chicken and egg though - is the timing jump causing a random misfire, or is the random misfire causing the timing jump. RPM is 1000 - 1050 at idle. I have had the strongest springs on just to make sure no mechanical was coming in, but it didn't change anything. Using the lighter springs didn't seem to make it any worse, either. Its something I plan to recheck when I do the timing curve on the new distributor, but last time it made little difference.

As for vacuum leaks - yes, that would seem to explain a bunch but I cannot find any. I unplugged and capped all vacuum accessories, so nothing on the carb at all, then tried two things:

1) Ran a length or rubber hose from my ear to the engine - used it to amplify the sounds - I did find a leaky PCV grommet at one point and fixed that, but nothing else.

2) Used carb cleaner around the intake and carb base - no changes or response from the engine.

My vacuum reads at around 11 HG (which is pretty good for this cam, normal reported is more like 9HG). It does have a rapid flutter in the needle, around 1 HG when warm, more when cold, but I attributed that the the 107 Lobe Separation angle on the cam - larger overlap playing with the vacuum signal.

Originally Posted by Chucknorbid
Why is your idle so high.Does this motor have a super radical cam?
Not super radical, no, but 900 -1000RPM is very typical for this cam. Specs are: Duration: 279 / 297 (I/E), duration at .050: 227/241, Valve lift 0.479 / 0.465 (I/E) with 107 LSA.

Originally Posted by Chucknorbid
Did you adjust valves with engine running? If so this not the way to do it...... Here is the factory procedure. # 1 TDC compression stroke Adjust Ex 1,3,4,8 Int 1,2,5,7 Rotate motor 1 turn back to 0 TDC this brings # 6 to TDC on compresson stroke.Adjust Ex 2,5,6,7 Int 3,4,6,8.When adjusting valves tighten to 0 lash and put 1 turn on nut and lock your poly lock. Some people use 1/4-1/2-3/4. I have always used the 1 turn and had no problems.
I adjusted them exactly as you describe on the engine stand. I readjusted / verified my static adjustment with the engine hot and running after a few threads suggested poor valve adjustment might be causing the miss / timing jump and the vacuum flutter. In all, I think I essentially verified that my static adjustment was spot on, but I've also learned that an arrogant mechanic is the number 1 cause of most engine problems, so, figured it was worth checking again. . The vacuum signal did seem to stabilize some after I re-checked the adjustment, so, I must have had something a little off.



Originally Posted by Chucknorbid
Next I would static time the engine at 10 Deg BTC. Do this by setting balancer to 10 deg BTC on compression stroke on the timing tab.Make sure your rotor is pointing to #1 .If using electronic adjust dist rotor vane where it just goes past the pickup magnet. If using points isolate the points from the system an hook a Omh meter across the point arm and the point body.With the points closed rotate the dist until the meter just breaks connection. This will put you at the 10 deg BTC +/- a deg.Recheck the firing order. I know you know all this stuff but I always go to the basics in order. Next I would plug all vacuum sources. Start the engine and dial in timing at 10 deg TDC and try to get it to idle at 750-800.
Definitely willing to give it a shot, but this cam typically requires at least 16 degrees initial (going by others that have used it) and Comp Cams themselves recommends 16-20. I have my initial set at 16 for now. Distributor has not been re-curved yet but on the last one i used I had it set to provide 22 degrees, all in by 3500 RPM. So total was 38, a little higher than ideal, but I'll have to readjust it all anyway and shoot for 36. My vacuum advance (hooked to manifold vacuum) adds another 8 degrees and will be all in with only 6-8HG of vacuum (engine only makes 11 or so).


Originally Posted by Chucknorbid
The plug fouling is fuel or oil?
yes. Its certainly fouling dry carbon, but on some plugs there is more oil on the threads that I'd expect and a sort of shiny varnish look to the electrode. Here we have three volunteers..... Numbers 2, 6, and 7 respectively. Number three is just like number 6 except the carbon is typically a little heavier, but dry ( I cleaned it already so didn't take a picture). Number 7 here has some wet on the first two threads and even a little on the face / skirt (whatever you call it) of the plug. In all cases, there is no debris down in the plug, and even "slightly wet" number 7 has some more typical browning going on. Believe it or not - this is actually better than it was. Its also important to keep in mind that This car has seen virtually no driving, idling only with a few RPM increases to test something - so I wouldn't expect the plugs to look great.





Originally Posted by HP Hunter
With the c.r. at 9.4 it will need 15/20 degrees initial on the tag. If you dont start with this number youll have all kinds of tuning problems.

Harry
I'm at 16, will try an increase to 18 if the transition slots are too far open.


Happy thanksgiving!

Last edited by Imothph; 11-26-2015 at 03:01 PM.
Old 11-26-2015, 08:00 PM
  #26  
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Try timing off #6 cylinder to see if the wander is still present.
Old 11-27-2015, 09:40 AM
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He needs to time it all in not set timing at idle .

Set up curve and 36 all in at 3000 , what ever initial is it is don't worry about it .

Can you make a clip of misfire ? Is it even at speed driving ?
Old 11-27-2015, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by diehrd
He needs to time it all in not set timing at idle .

Set up curve and 36 all in at 3000 , what ever initial is it is don't worry about it .

Can you make a clip of misfire ? Is it even at speed driving ?
I know this is a popular way to do timing. However if I had done my timing this way it would run like s**t. The problem is that you are locking yourself into whatever movement the mechanical advance has and whatever movement the vac advance has.

I adjusted my timing for best idle and off idle response, then adjusted/limited the mechanical advance movement to get 34* (in my case) and the vac advance to get 51* (again in my case) for cruise timing.
This method gave me better performance in all realms of operation not just best WOT performance.

Op, for idle performance and off idle it may be necessary to introduce more idle bypass air for the carb at idle. I have no knowledge of how a Holley does this. For a q-jet there is a bypass orfice and I needed to drill it larger.
Bypass air allows air below the throttle blades without opening the blades exposing the transition slots causing a rich condition at idle.
Your 107 LSA along with your duration I'm sure would require this and you low vacuum confirms it.
I run 108 LSA and it needed additional bypass air to idle cleanly. I idle at 10" in gear at 550 RPM and it will idle there all day at that vacuum level.
Another issue could be if your vac can drops out at a vac level higher than your idle vacuum then your timing is instantly retarded when that happens.
You might want to check to see that your vac can is still operating at 11" of vac.

Last edited by REELAV8R; 11-27-2015 at 12:32 PM.
Old 11-28-2015, 04:08 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by REELAV8R
I know this is a popular way to do timing. However if I had done my timing this way it would run like s**t. The problem is that you are locking yourself into whatever movement the mechanical advance has and whatever movement the vac advance has.

I adjusted my timing for best idle and off idle response, then adjusted/limited the mechanical advance movement to get 34* (in my case) and the vac advance to get 51* (again in my case) for cruise timing.
This method gave me better performance in all realms of operation not just best WOT performance.

Op, for idle performance and off idle it may be necessary to introduce more idle bypass air for the carb at idle. I have no knowledge of how a Holley does this. For a q-jet there is a bypass orfice and I needed to drill it larger.
Bypass air allows air below the throttle blades without opening the blades exposing the transition slots causing a rich condition at idle.
Your 107 LSA along with your duration I'm sure would require this and you low vacuum confirms it.
I run 108 LSA and it needed additional bypass air to idle cleanly. I idle at 10" in gear at 550 RPM and it will idle there all day at that vacuum level.
Another issue could be if your vac can drops out at a vac level higher than your idle vacuum then your timing is instantly retarded when that happens.
You might want to check to see that your vac can is still operating at 11" of vac.
Sigh....timing this car - I think I've done it every which way. here is where i am now:

I set initial timing at 16 and calibrated an additional 16 or so from vacuum advance (manifold vacuum). My vacuum advance will bring this fully in at around 9HG. With 20 degrees in the distributor, I would have had 36 total, and 52 at cruise - the magic numbers - but alas, it didn't work.* The 16 from the vacuum advance moved the idle up to 1350, which I could adjust down with the idle screw, but that did two things: 1) I lost exact calibration on the transfer slots -I'd checked and adjusted with carb off & 2) When I put the car in gear and the vacuum dropped, so too did the RPM, and bye-bye running motor. With the throttle blades closed-up to compensate for 1350 idle and drop it back to 1000 rpm, there just wasn't enough RPM to keep running once the vacuum advance dropped out (I get around 7HG in gear, not enough to keep 16 degrees vacuum advance). Instead, I settled for a limit of 12 degrees of vacuum advance, which is all in by 5-6HG. I still had to adjust the idle down a bit, so off of the "optimum" transfer slot calibration, but only by a half turn of the idle screw. In this case I'm hitting* 28 degrees between vacuum and initial - I wont get to the ideal 50-54 degrees cruise number, but the car stays running, and I can still get 36 total once I curve / limit the distributor. Its running the best it ever has currently, not perfect by far, but best yet.

I also threw on a fuel regulator and gauge. PSI was high, but hard to get a good reading due to the pulsing of the mechanical pump. It had a jump between a high of 8.5 to a low of around 4. Once I put the regulator on, it read generally 7-8, so I cranked that back to 6 - which is in the recommended range for the Holley SA770.

Tomorrow I plan on re-curving / limiting the distributor - looking for 20 degrees.

In terms of introducing more air - I believe some of the "fancier" Holley carbs have ways to do it rather easily as a stock feature. On the Street Avenger, I think the only way is to crack open the secondaries. There is a small adjustment screw on the base of the carb, behind the vacuum actuator for the secondaries, on the same side of the carb as the as the choke. Its a very small screw, and you need a very short screwdriver to get it with the carb on. I my case though, the transition slots are actually more closed than ideal, rather than too far open, but not by much and not that I was able to notice in driving to the gas station. I do wish I could get that 16 degrees of vacuum advance to hit 52 degrees at cruise, but I dont think I'll get there with my vacuum dropping so much in gear. I do have a different Vac can that I can try.

Allan.

Last edited by Imothph; 11-28-2015 at 04:10 AM.
Old 11-28-2015, 11:39 AM
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by Lars Grimsrud
Colorado Corvette Crazies (CCC)
The Ultimate Corvette Tuning & Beer Drinking Fraternity
Lafayette, CO

This tech paper will discuss basic set-up and tuning of Holley vacuum secondary carbs for optimum street
performance and drivability.

Overview
Holley carbs have been used by hot rodders for many decades now. Holley offers a very tuneable, modular
carb design, yet it’s surprising how few people understand the basic tuning principles and procedures for
these carbs. This tech paper will discuss some basic tuning procedures and techniques to help you get your
setup optimized a little better.
Holley carbs have several operating systems, all of which can be tuned independently. Often, an improper
setup of one system will give false indications of a problem in another system. Attempting to cure Holley
problems by tuning the wrong system results in a really messed up carb, and a lot of frustration for tuners
and car owners.

Holleys have the following basic operating systems:
Idle System
Accelerator System
Main Metering System
Power System
Secondary System
These systems at times overlap in their operation. Not only does each system need to be properly tuned,
but its timing and “overlap” with other systems is critical to proper performance.

Tech Tip #1
Before you go trying to fix all the errors of the previous carb tuner, set your carb up to the stock Holley
spec for your carb List Number (stamped into the front of the air horn). Holley does a pretty decent job of
supplying a ready-to-run carb, so the jetting, pump cam, shooter sizing, and spring rates are usually pretty
close. This will give you a good baseline starting point for your tuning process. You can either call your
local Holley distributor for the stock specs on your List Number carb, or go to this website to check out the
baseline configuration:
http://www.mortec.com/carbs.htm

Tech Tip #2
When buying tuning parts for your Holley you have two choices:
Obviously, Holley offers original parts at the Holley price. I highly recommend original Holley rebuild
kits, gaskets, and power valves. BG, or Barry Grant, also makes parts for Holleys, and offers them at a
fraction of the Holley price. BG is a great source for items such as the accelerator pump cam kits.

Tech Tip #3
Virtually all musclecars (with a only a few notable exceptions) came from the factory with a dual plane
intake manifold, also known as a “180-degree” manifold. A dual plane intake is characterized by having
two separate sides (right and left) which feed two different “levels” inside the manifold. Half of the
cylinders are “fed” from the one level, and the other half are “fed” from the second level. A dual plane
manifold promotes higher intake velocity at lower rpm, improving low-end torque and low-end throttle
response. A dual plane manifold also promotes very good vacuum at idle and at low speed.
At very high rpm, a dual plane manifold will loose some efficiency. For this reason, there are single plane
manifolds available. Known also as “360-degree” manifolds, the single plane manifolds typically have
large intake runners and a large, open plenum under the carb. Very good for high-rpm use, these manifolds
can be a real challenge to tune for low-end, street rpm use. A single plane manifold will typically
significantly reduce vacuum, and this causes several problems.
Intake vacuum is used by the carb as a “signal” for many different events to occur. As vacuum is reduced,
caused by large plenum intakes and large overlap cams, the vacuum “range” becomes much more narrow.
The carb tuner must make the various events occur within this narrow tuning range, while hitting a much
more narrow “tolerance” for overlapping events to occur. Typically, a large-plenum intake will require
richer main jetting and a richer pump shot to avoid a lean stumble hesitation upon initial acceleration. The
idle transition may even require extensive recalibration of the idle restrictors – not an operation for the doit-
yourselfer.
My recommendation: don’t use a single plane intake on a street driven car unless you have a lot of cubic
inches and you’re willing to put in a lot of time tuning the idle transition. If you’re experiencing an off-idle
stumble on a car with a single plane manifold, your problem may be in the manifold and not with the carb.
Consider spending the $$ for a dual plane intake and saving yourself some frustration.

Tech Tip #4
Which way to tune the accelerator pump – richer or leaner?
Hesitation, stumble, or backfire is usually indicative of a lean condition.
“Lazy throttle” is usually indicative of a rich condition.
A rich condition may also be accompanied by a small puff of black smoke upon initial acceleration.

Tech Tip #5
When removing the float bowl, pull one of the lower float bolt screws first. Place a small container, such
as the plastic cap off of a spray paint can, under the float bowl, and catch the fuel as it drains out. When
you put it all back together, you can use a small kitchen funnel (just don’t tell your wife about it) to pour
the drained fuel back into the bowl by dumping the fuel down the bowl vent tube (the tube sticking up right
at the choke).

Tech Tip #6
When using a Holley on a car with a bumpy cam, it is often necessary to screw the idle speed screw in far
enough that the ported vacuum slot in the throttle bore is uncovered, producing significant ported vacuum
to the distributor vacuum advance at idle. When the engine is rev’ed up, the vacuum source advances the
timing, as it should. When the throttle is closed, the rpm will very gradually bleed down as vacuum
advance gradually fades: the engine will not settle down immediately to the correct idle speed. To
eliminate this problem, you can adjust the secondary opening screw to allow the secondary throttle plates to
be cracked open a little more than the spec requirement. This will bleed a little air through the secondaries
at idle, increasing idle speed and allowing the primaries to be closed down to correct the ported vacuum
problem.

Tools and Equipment Required

As a minimum, you will need the following tools:
1. Vacuum Gauge
2. Small cup to drain fuel into
3. Screwdrivers
4. Box end wrenches
5. Spark plug removal tools
6. Rags
Procedure
Here is my recommended sequence and procedure for doing a basic Holley set-up:

1. Bench-Set the Idle Speed
Even though most “street” Holley carbs only have idle mixture screws on the primary metering block,
almost all Holleys have an idle fuel transfer passage that discharges idle fuel on the secondary side as well
as on the primary side. This means that the carb meters idle fuel and idle air through all 4 of the throttles –
primary and secondary. For this system to work properly, it is absolutely critical that all 4 of the throttle
blades ALWAYS be set at the same setting (NEVER set idle speed by only adjusting the primary idle
speed screw). This will assure that the carb is balanced and working right from the beginning.
Before installing the carb to the engine (if you have installed it, yank it off), turn the carb upside-down on
your workbench. The first thing you should notice is the recessed secondary throttle idle speed screw
located on the passenger side of the carb: it’s recessed into the throttle plate near the secondary shaft.
Next, if you look at the throttle bores just below the edge of the throttle plates (“butterflies”), you will see a
vertical slot. Open the throttles a little to see the whole slot. This slot is called the “transfer slot,” and it
provides a fuel discharge transition circuit between the idle circuit (which discharges fuel out of the round
idle discharge holes below the throttle plates) and the main metering circuit (which discharges fuel out of
the main discharge nozzles once airflow through the venturies is high enough to pull the fuel through the
nozzles). The transition slot receives its fuel from the idle metering supply circuit.
With the throttles fully closed against their idle stop screws (not on the fast idle cam), noting that the
secondaries and primaries both have separate idle stop screws, there should be exactly .020” of the
transition slot exposed below the primary throttle plates. Use a .020” feeler gauge to measure this: Place
the feeler gauge on the throttle plate up against the transition slot and adjust the idle speed screw so that the
slot JUST BARELY disappears behind the feeler gauge. At .020” slot exposure, the slot will appear to be a
perfectly square hole. Adjust the primary idle speed screw so that the primary blades are in position.
On Holley carbs that have been in service for a while, the secondary throttle adjustment screw is often
partially seized, so you have to use a small screwdriver with a pair of vice grips attached to the shank of the
screwdriver to turn the screw. It’s best to “rock” the screw back and forth to get it loose enough to turn.
The next thing to note is that the secondary transition slots on a Holley are often located higher in the
throttle bores than on the primary side: If you try to obtain the .020” transition exposure on the secondary
side of a Holley, you will often end up with the secondaries opened significantly more than the primaries.
To avoid this, use the following secondary throttle adjustment on the Holley carbs: After adjusting and
setting up the primary throttle blade angle as described above (.020” transition slot exposure), hold the carb
up to a light and look up the bottom of the carb (with the choke blade wide open) – note the amount of
“light gap” around the primary throttle blades. Now, adjust the secondary idle speed screw to duplicate the
primary “light gap” on the secondary side. This will usually get the secondary throttle blades close to the
transition slot, but you may not have .020” exposure. Idea is to get the same blade angle and airflow
through all 4 corners of the carb – the “comparative light gap” method allows you to get this very close.
Once the primary and secondary throttles have been set to this initial idle speed setting (which should make
your car idle very close to the correct idle rpm range), it is your job as a tuner to assure that any further idle
speed changes occur by adjusting both of the screws equally from this point on. Never adjust the idle speed
by only adjusting the primary screw: if you adjust the primary idle speed by ¼ turn, you MUST adjust the
secondary idle speed screw ¼ turn as well. Keep the two throttles adjusted the same.
2. Set the float level.
You’ll be amazed how many people try tuning a Holley without ever checking the float level. An incorrect
float level can give you all kinds of symptoms and problems, so get this one set right off the bat. Most
Holleys have a sight plug on the side of the float bowls, and have externally adjustable floats. With the
engine HOT and running (float level will change with engine temperature – make sure you’re completely
warmed up before setting this), put a rag under the sight plug area and pull the plug. Adjust the float level
until fuel just barely starts to dribble out of the plug, then lower it until the dribble barely stops. The slotted
screw in the center of the adjustment is the locking feature – loosen it and turn the hex nut CW to lower the
float level, CCW to raise it.
3. Make sure your Power Valve is in the ballpark.
Most “stock” Holleys come with a power valve in the 6.5” range. This means that the power valve will
open and start dumping fuel into the discharge when manifold vacuum hits 6.5” Hg (Mercury) of vacuum.
A lot of cars with big overlap cams, single plane manifolds, or operating at high altitude will not pull 6.5”
vacuum with the transmission in “drive.” This means that the power valve is flooding the engine with fuel
on very light acceleration right off idle, and you’ll never get the tuning right unless you fix it.
Hook up a vacuum gauge to the intake manifold or to one of the vacuum ports at the base of the carb. With
the transmission in “drive” (or in neutral on a manual car), note the vacuum reading. Your power valve
should be rated at about 2” below the actual vacuum reading. On a car running at 11” of vacuum in drive,
you will need about an 8.5” power valve.
4. Now get the main metering circuit in the ballpark.
Now that your power valve is not flooding you out, you can get the main metering jets tuned in. If your
main metering circuit is either too lean or too rich, you will not be able to properly set up the accelerator
pump circuit. Trying to fix a bog on acceleration with pump cams and discharge nozzles when the main
metering is off is like chasing your tail. The main metering system also affect the idle circuit, so you need
to get the main jets in line before going on to the other tuning parameters.
Pop a new set of spark plugs in the engine (don’t use the new Platinum or other exotic metal plugs- they
won’t read right). Now take the car out for a drive around a few blocks. Get it up to steady-state cruise
rpm, and make a few moderate accelerations. Pull the car back into the garage, allowing it to idle as little as
possible. Shut it down and pull a few of the plugs. The plugs should have a very light, off-white or tan
color around the nose of the insulator. If you’re pure white (completely clean), you’re probably running
too lean. If you’re picking up black soot, you’re too rich. Raise or lower primary jet sizes by 2 sizes at a
time and repeat this test until your plugs are showing the correct color.
5. Tweak your idle mixture screws.
Screw both of the screws in until they gently bottom out, and turn them both out 1 turn. This is a good
starting point. With a tach on the engine to monitor rpm, start the engine and turn the screws ½ turn at a
time, turning both screws the same amount, until the best rpm reading is observed. Then turn them in 1/8
turn to lean it out just a tad. Once set, I like to shut the engine off and turn both of the screws all the way
in, counting the turns, until they gently bottom out again. Just to make sure they’re both set the same.
Then back them out to the setting you had.
6. You’re finally ready to fine-tune the accelerator pump circuit.
Many people start by tuning this, and can never get the stumble tuned out of the car. By making sure that
the other systems are approximately right, you can now set this system up so that it’s not trying to
compensate for other deficiencies.
There are two tuning parameters to the accelerator pump circuit: Pump Cam and Discharge Nozzle.
The pump cam, a little plastic, color-coded part located on the throttle shaft with a single screw, will
determine the total volume of the pump shot.
The discharge nozzle, or “shooter,” is available in different sizes, and determines the rate of discharge. In
other words, it is possible to install a large-volume pump cam, and have a small-diameter “shooter” which
“bleeds” the total volume in over a longer duration. Or you can install a big “shooter” which allows the
entire pump shot to be dumped in almost immediately.
There is no real scientific way of coming up with the exact correct combination for these parts. As a rule,
of the car stumbles, backfires, or hesitates on initial throttle opening, try a larger shooter (the size is
stamped on the body, and they’re available in .001” increments). If the car has a “lazy throttle,” indicative
of a rich condition, try a smaller pump cam at first.
7. The last step in the initial tuning process is to set the secondary opening rate.
The secondary opening rate is determined by the spring in the secondary diaphragm. A soft spring will
allow the secondaries to open sooner. Install softer springs until the car develops a slight stumble from the
opening rate, then go back one spring level. This will allow the secondaries to open as quick as possible
while avoiding a stumble.
A common mistake made by “performance” tuners is to remove the secondary diaphragm check ball. The
check ball is installed in the secondary diaphragm housing, and helps to control the secondary opening rate.
Removal of the ball will result in immediate opening of the secondaries with very little mass air flow
through the primaries, with a resultant massive stumble upon acceleration.
You cannot normally get the vacuum secondaries to open by flicking the throttle and rev’ing the rpm with
the car in neutral. This is not a valid test of the functionality of the secondaries.
8. Now, if you want to fine-tune the primary jetting, you can do one of three things:
For maximum horsepower, you will need to run the car through a measured distance and note its speed at
the end of the distance. Using one of the available performance computers, or running the car at a track, is
best for this. The correct size jets are the jets which give the car the highest mph at the end of the measured
distance (not the shortest elapsed time). Again, change jet sizes 2 sizes at a time to see if the speed
increases or decreases.
For maximum economy, drop the jet size until the car develops a slight stumble upon acceleration, then go
up two sizes.
For a really good, scientific way of setting up the jetting, check out this website:
http://www.bob2000.com/carb.htm
I found this on the internet. Maybe it can be of help to you.
Old 11-28-2015, 02:24 PM
  #31  
toobroketoretire
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Its puzzling why people are so determined to ignore their shop manual's specifications and adjust their lifters to something else. Stubborn? Rebels? Independent? Free thinkers? Illiterate? Yeah, that's it...........illiterate!
Old 11-28-2015, 05:24 PM
  #32  
REELAV8R
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Originally Posted by toobroketoretire
Its puzzling why people are so determined to ignore their shop manual's specifications and adjust their lifters to something else. Stubborn? Rebels? Independent? Free thinkers? Illiterate? Yeah, that's it...........illiterate!
Throwing rocks in a glass house aren't you?

Non-stock applications/components may call for non-stock procedures.
Old 11-28-2015, 05:44 PM
  #33  
DUB
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Originally Posted by toobroketoretire
Its puzzling why people are so determined to ignore their shop manual's specifications and adjust their lifters to something else. Stubborn? Rebels? Independent? Free thinkers? Illiterate? Yeah, that's it...........illiterate!
YEAH...and what is EVEN MORE AMAZING is that when 'some' people still think that going 'by the book' IS the ONLY way.....especially when the parts being used HAVE a DIFFERENT specification. AND with the way of thinking that what has been set forth as a specific procedure...what we would have NO ONE finding out that specification CAN CHANGE for the BETTER.

And speaking of specifications.....look at the GM tolerances of an engine and I know engine builders who shudder when they look at the tolerances GM allows. Always keeping the tolerances on the low side.

PERFECT EXAMPLE..."Big Daddy' Don Garlits. During my days being a part of a nitro drag race team. Don Garlits was at a track doing a guest appearance and talking to the spectators and I remember how he mentioned on how during the beginnings of the nitro class...looking for more pwoer and lower ET's that he began 'playing with' the timing and more power was found...and so on....and we have what he have today DUE TO PEOPLE who test things.

DUB
Old 11-28-2015, 09:11 PM
  #34  
'75
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Originally Posted by toobroketoretire
Its puzzling why people are so determined to ignore their shop manual's specifications and adjust their lifters to something else. Stubborn? Rebels? Independent? Free thinkers? Illiterate? Yeah, that's it...........illiterate!
You mean like running your tires under inflated ?
Old 11-29-2015, 08:30 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by '75
You mean like running your tires under inflated ?

Please define "under inflated".
Old 11-29-2015, 08:34 AM
  #36  
diehrd
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They sell an adjuster screw kit for holley and other carbs so you can adjust idle by the rear barrels which is extremely effective in maintaining transfer slot setting and adjusting for a perfect idle .

If a vac secondary will not allow using this adjuster take a small allen wrench and grind it flat making it into a right angle screw driver


When you have a bigger cam you are usually going to idle rich but that should not cause any plug fouling.

Have you isolated which cylinder is misfiring ( I may have missed the post if you have )
Old 11-29-2015, 02:44 PM
  #37  
Imothph
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@REELAV8R - thanks for the post - I've read pieces of that text, but never all together.

Originally Posted by diehrd
They sell an adjuster screw kit for holley and other carbs so you can adjust idle by the rear barrels which is extremely effective in maintaining transfer slot setting and adjusting for a perfect idle .

If a vac secondary will not allow using this adjuster take a small allen wrench and grind it flat making it into a right angle screw driver


When you have a bigger cam you are usually going to idle rich but that should not cause any plug fouling.

Have you isolated which cylinder is misfiring ( I may have missed the post if you have )
The problem that I have with the transfer slot setting, is actually the opposite of what most people seem to have. Rather than being too far open - which you could remedy by cracking the secondaries, mine are probably a touch too far closed. I set them at 0.028 or so (aiming for 0.025 - 0.030, so I hit the middle giving me a bit of adjustment). Once back on the car, I had to lower the idle by around 300RPM, so a half turn or so on the idle screw, effectively closing the transfer slot more - no sure how much a half turn means - I guess I could check - I have an old Holly-style carb (off a 63 Thunderbird) that should be pretty close. Regardless, If I started at 0.028, figure a half turn less, I could easily be within spec as long as the slot has a minimum of 0.020 showing. I could move to ported vacuum as previously suggested, causing me to raise the idle via the idle screw and exposing more of the slot, but I'm not 100% sold on that idea. Manifold vacuum has been drilled into me for so long

Great idea about grinding down an Allen wrench - I'll do that anyway.

As for the misfire cylinder - no. #3 has typically showed the most carbon fouling, easily differentiated from the others, but that's not a definitive identification because at times, many or all of the plugs have been suspect. I've used three different styles of tester and the timing light itself to try identify a misfire, but unfortunately they all seem to be a bit unreliable. I've checked and rechecked valve adjustments, changed plugs three times and wires three times as well with some improvement, but not complete resolution. I'd suspect an electrical problem actually except that I confirmed a consistent 14.3V to the coil. My corvette has had an....interesting electrical life and has had more than its share of minor electrical gremlins. Just for fun, because we all know it is, I ran resistance tests on the existing grounds (all within spec) and just to be sure, I added an additional one from block to frame.

Does the starter get power direct from the battery, or does it come from a junction elsewhere? I need to get a decent wiring diagram of a 78.

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To Sudden lifter / Rocker noise - potential causes?

Old 11-29-2015, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Imothph
@REELAV8R

Does the starter get power direct from the battery, or does it come from a junction elsewhere?

Nope, it gets it's power from the starter solenoid which gets it's power from the battery.
Old 11-29-2015, 03:33 PM
  #39  
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You're about to feel the floor shake, in your local church.......this ONE time, I agree with "toobroke". The Chevy FSM says "one turn down from zero lash" for the lifter adjustment, assuming FACTORY lifters. I've also used Comp lifters (hi-rev roller lifters) that Comp spec'd at 1/8 (YES, 1/8!!) turn down from zero lash...

To the OP, a couple of things to check. I've used the Comp "poly-locks" on a couple of cars, and IIRC, they recommend that the set screws be tightened to 22 ft/lbs of torque. I used a 3/8" drive torque wrench, with a corresponding allen head socket.

If your engine is "missing", my suggestion would be to check your left side plug wires. Cylinders 3 and 5 are close in the firing order, and if you mistakenly mix their routing (I did once), the engine will sort of run OK, but skip....
Old 11-29-2015, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by leadfoot4
You're about to feel the floor shake, in your local church.......this ONE time, I agree with "toobroke". The Chevy FSM says "one turn down from zero lash" for the lifter adjustment, assuming FACTORY lifters. I've also used Comp lifters (hi-rev roller lifters) that Comp spec'd at 1/8 (YES, 1/8!!) turn down from zero lash...

To the OP, a couple of things to check. I've used the Comp "poly-locks" on a couple of cars, and IIRC, they recommend that the set screws be tightened to 22 ft/lbs of torque. I used a 3/8" drive torque wrench, with a corresponding allen head socket.

If your engine is "missing", my suggestion would be to check your left side plug wires. Cylinders 3 and 5 are close in the firing order, and if you mistakenly mix their routing (I did once), the engine will sort of run OK, but skip....

The whole object of adjusting a hydraulic lifter is to approximately center it's plunger. A flat tappet lifter actually requires 1-1/8 turns down to center it's plunger and a retro-fit roller requires 5/8 turn down. And its cylinder #5 and #7 that get switched which makes #5 fire 90 degrees too late and #7 fire 90 degrees too early. The engine will run but just barely; usually backfiring thru the carburetor.

Last edited by toobroketoretire; 11-29-2015 at 03:52 PM.


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