Strange No Start Issue
12-20-2015, 10:47 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Strange No Start Issue
Since the first day ive had my vette back in Feb of 2013 ive had an intermittent no start when i would turn the key to start and all the guages would work but the starter wouldnt engage. Well recently its been getting worse and worse until it was to the point it would take hours to get the car to finally start.. I recently had to replace the lock cylinder because a tumbler broke inside of it which caused me to have to buy a new ignition switch as well so i figured that wouldve probably fixed my problem, but it did not... Since then ive went ahead and replaced the starter as well as the theft deterrent relay. The car still will not crank.. Every now and then after several tries it will start. Ive taken a test light to the tdr relay and tested the wires that come from the vats system and i get no response from the ignition.. I am completely stumped at this so all help is appreciated greatly.
12-20-2015, 11:28 PM
#2
Instructor
Thread Starter
12-21-2015, 09:22 AM
#3
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Nov 2014
Location: Havre de Grace Maryland
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[QUOTE=VengeanceVette;1591155787]Since the first day ive had my vette back in Feb of 2013 ive had an intermittent no start when i would turn the key to start and all the gauges would work but the starter wouldn't engage.
I had the same problem about a month ago but happen only once, so far. The CF suggestions included cleaning the Key and trying the spare key. I did both and have not experience the no start again.
I had the same problem about a month ago but happen only once, so far. The CF suggestions included cleaning the Key and trying the spare key. I did both and have not experience the no start again.
12-21-2015, 09:44 AM
#4
Instructor
Thread Starter
[QUOTE=rrwirsi;1591157298]
Yeah I have 2 new keys that worked prior to this.
Since the first day ive had my vette back in Feb of 2013 ive had an intermittent no start when i would turn the key to start and all the gauges would work but the starter wouldn't engage.
I had the same problem about a month ago but happen only once, so far. The CF suggestions included cleaning the Key and trying the spare key. I did both and have not experience the no start again.
I had the same problem about a month ago but happen only once, so far. The CF suggestions included cleaning the Key and trying the spare key. I did both and have not experience the no start again.
12-21-2015, 10:50 AM
#5
Tech Contributor
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CI 6,7,8,9,11 Vet
St. Jude Donor '08
There are TWO parts to the IGNITION SWITCH. The KEY CYLINDER portion which includes the KEY RESISTOR SENSOR/READER & the actual SWITCH PROTION
Did you just replace the key cylinder part OR did you also replace the switch portion also???
You need to do some DC VOLTAGE testing. You need to use this schematic:
The TDR has two sides. The 12VDC High Current side and the 12VDC Low Current (relay control side).
Don't know if you have an auto or MN6 but when you do all the action necessary to crank the engine, the TDR RELAY should energize and put 12VDC 60 Amps on the PURPLE WIRE that goes to the starter solenoid.
If the relay doesn't energize, SOMETHING in the chain of switches and fuses is NOT allowing power to the coil side of the relay OR the BCM isn't happy and allowing the GROUND SIDE of the coil to go to BCM Ground through the YELLOW /BLACK stripe wire.
Here is an ignition switch post for you to examine:
- C5 ignition Switch repair - http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-t...ch-repair.html
BC
Did you just replace the key cylinder part OR did you also replace the switch portion also???
You need to do some DC VOLTAGE testing. You need to use this schematic:
The TDR has two sides. The 12VDC High Current side and the 12VDC Low Current (relay control side).
Don't know if you have an auto or MN6 but when you do all the action necessary to crank the engine, the TDR RELAY should energize and put 12VDC 60 Amps on the PURPLE WIRE that goes to the starter solenoid.
If the relay doesn't energize, SOMETHING in the chain of switches and fuses is NOT allowing power to the coil side of the relay OR the BCM isn't happy and allowing the GROUND SIDE of the coil to go to BCM Ground through the YELLOW /BLACK stripe wire.
Here is an ignition switch post for you to examine:
- C5 ignition Switch repair - http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-t...ch-repair.html
BC
Last edited by Bill Curlee; 12-21-2015 at 10:54 AM.
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VengeanceVette (12-21-2015)
12-21-2015, 11:27 AM
#6
Instructor
Thread Starter
There are TWO parts to the IGNITION SWITCH. The KEY CYLINDER portion which includes the KEY RESISTOR SENSOR/READER & the actual SWITCH PROTION
Did you just replace the key cylinder part OR did you also replace the switch portion also???
You need to do some DC VOLTAGE testing. You need to use this schematic:
The TDR has two sides. The 12VDC High Current side and the 12VDC Low Current (relay control side).
Don't know if you have an auto or MN6 but when you do all the action necessary to crank the engine, the TDR RELAY should energize and put 12VDC 60 Amps on the PURPLE WIRE that goes to the starter solenoid.
If the relay doesn't energize, SOMETHING in the chain of switches and fuses is NOT allowing power to the coil side of the relay OR the BCM isn't happy and allowing the GROUND SIDE of the coil to go to BCM Ground through the YELLOW /BLACK stripe wire.
Here is an ignition switch post for you to examine:
- C5 ignition Switch repair - http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-t...ch-repair.html
BC
Did you just replace the key cylinder part OR did you also replace the switch portion also???
You need to do some DC VOLTAGE testing. You need to use this schematic:
The TDR has two sides. The 12VDC High Current side and the 12VDC Low Current (relay control side).
Don't know if you have an auto or MN6 but when you do all the action necessary to crank the engine, the TDR RELAY should energize and put 12VDC 60 Amps on the PURPLE WIRE that goes to the starter solenoid.
If the relay doesn't energize, SOMETHING in the chain of switches and fuses is NOT allowing power to the coil side of the relay OR the BCM isn't happy and allowing the GROUND SIDE of the coil to go to BCM Ground through the YELLOW /BLACK stripe wire.
Here is an ignition switch post for you to examine:
- C5 ignition Switch repair - http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-t...ch-repair.html
BC
I replaced the lock cylinder and the ignition switch as well. all new parts. I will take your advise on cleaning the female pig tail harness to the ignition switch and hopefully that is my problem. Its evident its somewhere between the ignition switch and the bcm, just gotta track it down I suppose.
12-21-2015, 10:48 PM
#7
Drifting
Bill,
I replaced the lock cylinder and the ignition switch as well. all new parts. I will take your advise on cleaning the female pig tail harness to the ignition switch and hopefully that is my problem. Its evident its somewhere between the ignition switch and the bcm, just gotta track it down I suppose.
I replaced the lock cylinder and the ignition switch as well. all new parts. I will take your advise on cleaning the female pig tail harness to the ignition switch and hopefully that is my problem. Its evident its somewhere between the ignition switch and the bcm, just gotta track it down I suppose.
12-22-2015, 12:24 AM
#8
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Aug 2005
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St. Jude Donor '13-'14-'15
You didn't say the year of your car----But early C5's have a common "column lock" issue
It was so bad that even today on early C5's because it is was a safety issue they are still fixing them under warranty----What year is your car ?
It was so bad that even today on early C5's because it is was a safety issue they are still fixing them under warranty----What year is your car ?
12-22-2015, 09:49 AM
#9
Instructor
Thread Starter
12-22-2015, 09:50 AM
#10
Instructor
Thread Starter
Car is an 04 so I believe the recall has already been done.
12-22-2015, 11:15 AM
#11
Le Mans Master
A CL issue should have no effect on whether the car starts or not.
BTW, There were no effective recalls to fix CL issues unless they went into the column to make a modification. 8VETTE7 above is the expert on CL issues. The LMC5 would be the best CL fix issue and we can discuss that later.
Do you have a manual or automatic? Makes a difference for this and CL. For CL if you have an automatic then CL is not an issue from 01-04. GM did not have to have put it in.
Did you replace the electrical switch behind the key cylinder?
Knowing an answer to those two questions can help us figure this out.
Mr. Sam
BTW, There were no effective recalls to fix CL issues unless they went into the column to make a modification. 8VETTE7 above is the expert on CL issues. The LMC5 would be the best CL fix issue and we can discuss that later.
Do you have a manual or automatic? Makes a difference for this and CL. For CL if you have an automatic then CL is not an issue from 01-04. GM did not have to have put it in.
Did you replace the electrical switch behind the key cylinder?
Knowing an answer to those two questions can help us figure this out.
Mr. Sam
12-22-2015, 12:10 PM
#12
Instructor
Thread Starter
A CL issue should have no effect on whether the car starts or not.
BTW, There were no effective recalls to fix CL issues unless they went into the column to make a modification. 8VETTE7 above is the expert on CL issues. The LMC5 would be the best CL fix issue and we can discuss that later.
Do you have a manual or automatic? Makes a difference for this and CL. For CL if you have an automatic then CL is not an issue from 01-04. GM did not have to have put it in.
Did you replace the electrical switch behind the key cylinder?
Knowing an answer to those two questions can help us figure this out.
Mr. Sam
BTW, There were no effective recalls to fix CL issues unless they went into the column to make a modification. 8VETTE7 above is the expert on CL issues. The LMC5 would be the best CL fix issue and we can discuss that later.
Do you have a manual or automatic? Makes a difference for this and CL. For CL if you have an automatic then CL is not an issue from 01-04. GM did not have to have put it in.
Did you replace the electrical switch behind the key cylinder?
Knowing an answer to those two questions can help us figure this out.
Mr. Sam
12-22-2015, 12:13 PM
#13
Instructor
Thread Starter
In posts 1 and 7 the OP states that he replaced BOTH the key cylinder and the ignition switch so that question is answered.
That the column lock cannot effect whether the car will start or not. If the car is a manual trans and has had the recall service then the car COULD stall when you attempt to drive the car if the column lock system is failing. (2mph fuel shutoff enabled)
If the car is an automatic then as Sam stated you are very unlikely to have a column lock issue. Not impossible but very unlikely. If the car is a manual you might want to investigate the LMC5. Google Compliance Parts and read about the product. Highly recommended for all model year manual trans C5's and also for 97 - 2000 automatics which are affected by column lock/
OP, have you investigated the Clutch Pedal Start switch if your car is a manual or the Park Neutral Position switch if the car is an automatic??
Intermittant failure of either will result in a no crank condition. See the diagram that Bill provided in post #6 above.
That the column lock cannot effect whether the car will start or not. If the car is a manual trans and has had the recall service then the car COULD stall when you attempt to drive the car if the column lock system is failing. (2mph fuel shutoff enabled)If the car is an automatic then as Sam stated you are very unlikely to have a column lock issue. Not impossible but very unlikely. If the car is a manual you might want to investigate the LMC5. Google Compliance Parts and read about the product. Highly recommended for all model year manual trans C5's and also for 97 - 2000 automatics which are affected by column lock/
OP, have you investigated the Clutch Pedal Start switch if your car is a manual or the Park Neutral Position switch if the car is an automatic??
Intermittant failure of either will result in a no crank condition. See the diagram that Bill provided in post #6 above.
12-22-2015, 01:30 PM
#14
Le Mans Master
Excellent, I think we are down to an issue with the connector you reference or the neutral safety switch. Could always be an interconnecting wiring/connector issue but less likely. Diagnostics can tell.
I have worked on a couple of identical issues where the neutral safety switch was the issue. One such issue was resolved by cleaning the connections which had fluid and grime all in it.
I can provide info on that when I am at home.
Mr. Sam
I have worked on a couple of identical issues where the neutral safety switch was the issue. One such issue was resolved by cleaning the connections which had fluid and grime all in it.
I can provide info on that when I am at home.
Mr. Sam
12-23-2015, 01:28 AM
#15
Drifting
If you jump the TDR (12 volts to purple wire) it will bypass the neutral safety switch and the car should crank if the starter is good. Good way to check the switch and starter. Be careful, the car can start in gear using this method.
12-23-2015, 05:20 AM
#16
Instructor
Thread Starter
I saw where you replaced the starter. Starters/solenoid can be bad out of the box or fail shortly after install. Do you hear anything when you turn the key?
If you jump the TDR (12 volts to purple wire) it will bypass the neutral safety switch and the car should crank if the starter is good. Good way to check the switch and starter. Be careful, the car can start in gear using this method.
If you jump the TDR (12 volts to purple wire) it will bypass the neutral safety switch and the car should crank if the starter is good. Good way to check the switch and starter. Be careful, the car can start in gear using this method.
12-23-2015, 05:22 AM
#17
Instructor
Thread Starter
Excellent, I think we are down to an issue with the connector you reference or the neutral safety switch. Could always be an interconnecting wiring/connector issue but less likely. Diagnostics can tell.
I have worked on a couple of identical issues where the neutral safety switch was the issue. One such issue was resolved by cleaning the connections which had fluid and grime all in it.
I can provide info on that when I am at home.
Mr. Sam
I have worked on a couple of identical issues where the neutral safety switch was the issue. One such issue was resolved by cleaning the connections which had fluid and grime all in it.
I can provide info on that when I am at home.
Mr. Sam
I have a tech 2 and mdi, but im not sure on how to use it to figure out what could be wrong in my case. I was hoping maybe you could chime in on this?
12-23-2015, 06:05 AM
#18
Le Mans Master
Sure, first look at Bills Post 6, first picture. Sounds like the Neutral Safety switch, TDR relay, or the BCM is the issue. Swapping out the relay is easy to do. I think the safety switch is the most likely candidate.
If you need any DIY info on the safety switch let me know.
I would have to do some research to see how to test the BCM activation for the TDR with the Tech 2.
Mr. Sam
If you need any DIY info on the safety switch let me know.
I would have to do some research to see how to test the BCM activation for the TDR with the Tech 2.
Mr. Sam
12-23-2015, 10:24 AM
#19
Le Mans Master
I hope you find it soon, and it is just the switch. I had the same issue as you, but it was my starter. I know you changed it, but if all else fails, check your wiring on the starter again.
Probably not your battery, since gauges work, but just to cover all, make sure it is fully charged and good connections. May have weakened with cold and lack of use.
Probably not your battery, since gauges work, but just to cover all, make sure it is fully charged and good connections. May have weakened with cold and lack of use.
12-25-2015, 05:18 PM
#20
Instructor
Thread Starter
Problem fixed! First i would like to thank everyone who chimed in, and second the problem ended up being loose contacts on the harness that goes to the resistor. I performed a drag test and it had hardly any drag, so i pulled it apart and bent the connection tabs up and cleaned all contacts with R22. Haven't had a problem since!