theandies

I'm putting in a new clutch and flywheel. ZZ4, stock bell-housing and M20 4 speed. 168 tooth aluminum flywheel and clutch from SPEC.
I have the engine and transmission out as I'm doing other things and the other day I decided to setup the starter on the engine stand so it will be just one less thing I have to do on my back once I have the engine back it.
I indexed the flywheel to make sure it's run-out is good (it is) then bolted up the starter. I took the solenoid off so I could move the gear in and out by hand. I shimmed it up to get the 1/8 inch gear clearance but when I pulled back on the solenoid plunger to disengage the gear it gets stuck on the ring gear. After I do manage to disengage it I go to move it like it's starting the engine it just hits the ring gear and appears to be out of alignment.
I'm doing this without the bell-housing or dust shield in place. Could that be my problem? I also noticed the starter gear has a little up and down play on the shaft. I think this my have something to do with my issue as well. This is just a garden variety Chevy starter but It's held up well so I want to reuse it.
I have not checked the bell-housing indexing yet as I'm waiting on a new dial indicator (my old one broke right after checking the run-out on my flywheel, my son dropped it) so I'm not sure if that is an issue.
I've installed many starters in the past and have not had this problem before.
Any suggestions would be great.
If I can't get it to work I'll probably try a new starter so please recommend what has worked for you. Keep in mind this is a staggered bolt 168 tooth setup.

gerry72

Hard to say if that is normal or not since I've never tried that as a test of any kind. But it sounds as though the starter drive is not perpendicular to the flywheel. Are you using the proper knurled starter bolts.?

theandies

Yes, I've got the correct bolts.
I did do a search here and really didn't find anything that is close to my issue.

Alan 71

Hi ta,
I really know nothing about anything concerning modifications…..but… I noticed you say the dust shield isn't in place.
In a stock configuration the dust shield holds the starter a tiny bit back from the flywheel because the starter butts TO the shield which acts a 1/16" (?) shim.
Has this anything to do with what you're seeing?
Regards,
Alan

DUB

Honestly I think you are letting this get to you. I have encountered the bushings for the armature of the starter be bad and thus causes for it to have flex that can cause this. BUT I also make sure I use the front support brace that goes to the engine block and the front of the starter to make sure the starter is SOLIDLY mounted....and NOT using the two bolts at the block all by themselves.

If my advice means anything. I install the starter with no shims at all. I crank the engine and see what happens. I will know in literally a second if it is ok or If in need ot shim it down.

YES....I also know how to use the solenoid and just get the bendix to engage and not allow the starter to spin....but you wrote you are not using the solenoid to do this test.

And remember..as I am sure you do know... the engine is turning when the starter is engaged and when the key is turned back...the bendix can pull out....UNLESS it is really pinched...which will usually means it would not even engage into the teeth of the flywheel.

The bellhousing and dust shield have really no bearing on this...and this is because the CORRECT KNURLED blots put the starter where it needs to be..ESPECIALLY when the front support brace is installed...and the dust shield...would only effect the set back which is so minor if any at all...it does not matter. And from what I remember..I have to push the starter to the rear of the car to get it to allow the bolts to go in and thus...the dust shield is tight against it.

AND YES....I have the distributor disconnected so the engine will not run when I am doing the test on the starter. And if you want a percentage of 'problem starters'. I would say out of 50 starters...I would guess maybe 4 or 5 ( if that) would need a shim.

DUB

theandies

I do use the front support bracket. Always have always will. I just didn't have enough time to dick with it the other day. I'll probably end up with a new starter in the end since the first thing I did when it wouldn't work right the first time is inspect the starter gear and shaft and it's not perfect. If I were using my old steel fly wheel I wouldn't be this concerned. That combination was working fine. Since I'm installing an aluminium fly wheel I'm making it perfect.

Thanks guys

domenic tallarita

There are starter shims that go between the starter and block if the spacing is bad.

Dom

AboveTheLogic

I had the same thing where the gear would stick on the flywheel when trying to line up the starter with the engine out. Put something like 6 shims on, still stuck. Shrugged and continued. Put everything together, starter would grind lots when trying to start. Removed all the shims, sounded normal but bounced a lot. The grinding meant it was shimmed too much.

Put on 2 shims, starts and sounds normal and doesn't bounce.

Long story short, don't worry about it sticking. If you have the same experience as I do, if you shim too much it'll grind, and if you don't shim enough, the starter will do the hula when cranking.

theandies

Thanks Logic,
I got to thinking the same thing. I just don't want to mess up my new $400 aluminum fly-wheels ring gear that is why I thought I'd try and adjust it before installing the engine in the car.
My new thinking is that I really can't get an accurate indication of how the gears will mesh (other than the 1/8 clearance needed) by just moving the starter gear by hand (solenoid off moving the plunger by hand). I'm actually about 2 weeks from trying to start her back up so I have some time. I'll keep plugging away.

AboveTheLogic

I read somewhere you're supposed to be able to slip a paperclip in between the gears or something like that. In hindsight, it was all pretty silly. Its just a starter. Based off my experience, if you get the shimming wrong, you'll know it. It'll grind (too many shims, too far away), or it'll bounce (not enough shims, too close). I'll keep an eye on this thread to see if anyone has any other views on the subject.

I did do the measurement regarding how far the gear protrudes towards the flywheel, and shimmed the starter motor to the mounting block accordingly, but that might just be an attribute to the aftermarket starter I'm using.

theandies

I've used the paperclip method before. I now have a 1/8 inch rod that I use. This is the first time I've tried this on the engine stand so I don't have the dust shield or bell housing on. That may be my problem as Alan suggested. I stared by using the same shims I had on it before pulling the engine. The only difference is the new fly-wheel which I did get it setup to the 1/8 clearance.
Tomorrow I'm indexing my bell-housing and once I'm done with that I'll try this starter thing again with the bell-housing and dust shield. I'm just getting too old doing this stuff while laying on my back.

DUB

The bellhousing and dust shield do not control how the starter fits.....and that is not your problem as I explained back in post #5.

I have installed many aluminum flywheels and clutches and the process that I described and I use has never failed me...and I have yet never damaged the teeth on a flywheel of any design....but use the method that makes you feel good.

I DO AGREE...those starters are quite heavy and can be fun to wrestle all the time.

DUB

theandies

Dub,
The method you described in post #5 is the way I've done it in the past. Install with no shims -try to start - listen - rinse and repeat.

This time I'm test fitting it on my engine stand out of the car, no electricity. I guess I could hook up a switch to my battery and turn it over but I'm too lazy.
I've never tried it this way and wanted to "pre-shim" if you will before installing the engine. Like I said I'm getting too old to be wrestling with a starter laying on my back. I guess if I want to keep wrenching like this I'll have to get a lift.

AboveTheLogic

Or start digging a pit!

lionelhutz

If you can get the gear to engage and you have the 1/8" clearance then it should be good to go. The solenoid will ram the gear hard into the ring gear and then it engages the motor so the turning of the motor will get the gears to align and slip into place if they haven't slipped in place yet. In all it's a pretty harsh action compared to you moving it by hand.

DUB

I know there would be no way I would spin an engine on an engine stand.....but to each his/her own. The 'foot print' of the engine stand supports and legs would have to be outrageously wide...and even if they were..I still would not do it.

DUB