Go Back  CorvetteForum - Chevrolet Corvette Forum Discussion > Ask Tadge > Ask Tadge
Reload this Page >

[ANSWERED] Thoughts on Results of Best Driver's and Lightning Lap?

Notices
Ask Tadge Post your questions here for Corvette's Chief Engineer Tadge Juechter and then discuss the questions and his answers.

[ANSWERED] Thoughts on Results of Best Driver's and Lightning Lap?

 
Old 10-25-2018, 07:50 PM
  #1  
jvp
Tech Contributor
Support Corvetteforum!
Thread Starter
 
jvp's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 1999
Location: Oak Hill VA
Posts: 8,642
Thanked 1,618 Times in 439 Posts
"Ask Tadge" Facilitator
Default [ANSWERED] Thoughts on Results of Best Driver's and Lightning Lap?

The original question is here.

jvp asked:
Now that both Motor Trend and Car and Driver have released their late summer performance comparisons, what are your thoughts on how the ZR1 stacked up against the competitors in each case? Any insight you may be able to offer with respect to each outing?
Tadge answered:
This is a bit of an open ended question but it is a good follow up to the last AT question. We are always proud to be tested against the best super cars in the world. With many similar comparisons published at this point and more to come it’s clear that most of the automotive media has concluded that Porsches, Ferraris, McLarens and other exotics are the correct competitors for the Corvette and that, on balance, we do very well in this crowd.

The question specifically referenced the Car and Driver Lighting Lap and the Motor Trend Best Driver’s Car competition. These are very different tests on many levels. One of these differences is definitely track to track variation. Cars tend to do the best on the types of tracks where they are developed most. We never knowingly sacrifice performance at one track in favor of another, however, Laguna is not one of our primary tracks so the car may not be optimal there due to its unique pavement conditions. It’s interesting to note that a couple months prior to Motor Trend’s test at Laguna Seca Randy Pobst set a track record in the ZR1 at Road Atlanta and had many good things to say about it’s performance. There was also a recent Automobile Magazine test vs Porsche and McLaren at the Motorsports Park in Kentucky. It was a very hot day and the ZR1 performed very well. The ZR1 is getting a lot of attention and there will be many other tests of the car around the world. Although some reviews are better than others, we are very happy overall with how the car is being assessed by the media.

Back to Lightning Lap and BDC…. Philosophically it seems as though C&D reports descriptively on how a vehicle drives so the reader can understand the experience while MT has their concept of an ideal driver’s car and they rank the vehicles relative to that ideal. While both are valid methods for comparison that difference alone sheds light on why perspectives differ. Of course this is merely speculation based on reading the articles. We don’t have a seat at the table as editors are crafting their approach.

We should comment on some of the specifics in the article and how those are being expanded upon in forum discussions. Motor Trend made a comment that the Chevy team “begged for a morning run in the cool, dense air” and we know that has led to speculation that the ZR1 is not robust to temperature. The truth of the matter is our team was fine running in the afternoon if the other heavy hitters also ran that afternoon. After all, regardless of cooling system performance, physics applies to all cars equally so a comparison with large temperature differences can never be a fair one. Since the other cars were planned for the morning of day 3, we requested similar treatment.

To further directly address the cooling system question, we were able to prove the robustness and performance of the car during our earlier media launch at Road Atlanta. When Randy set the production car track record the ambient temps were in the low 50s. A couple days later Andy Pilgrim ran a similar session with temps in the mid to upper 80s and was within 1mph to Randy at the end of the backstretch. That same afternoon Andy ran a 13 lap session and his top speed only dropped 3 mph from Lap 1 to Lap 13. You can see Andy’s comments on that run in his Automobile article. Further, during Lightning Lap testing C&D was within 2 seconds of Jim Mero’s record setting lap even though temperatures were 40 degrees warmer. This is a remarkable result for any car, let alone with limited laps for the C&D driver to familiarize themselves with the car.

Last edited by jvp; 10-25-2018 at 07:50 PM.
jvp is offline  
The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to jvp For This Useful Post:
85nova (11-01-2018), billiam01 (11-02-2018), Bwright (12-26-2018), Chunkles (12-23-2018), daleong (10-26-2018), Fastmikefree (10-30-2018), FYREANT (10-30-2018), Lavender (10-27-2018), LIStingray (10-25-2018), mracer (11-02-2018), Telepierre (10-26-2018), trooper (10-31-2018), zhopper05 (10-31-2018)
Old 10-26-2018, 07:46 AM
  #2  
Telepierre
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
Telepierre's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,350
Thanked 124 Times in 94 Posts
Default

As for MT blatant "begging" misstatement, I suppose with age and experience savvy corvette owners can discern the funny business of automotive magazine editorials. I simply chuckled. Good $1 dollar entertainment.

No mention on competition's tires switcheroo's. Taking the high ground I suppose or just chuckling at that as well.

Thank you Tadge.
Telepierre is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Telepierre For This Useful Post:
ArmchairArchitect (10-28-2018), jimmyb (11-06-2018), skank (10-29-2018)
Old 10-27-2018, 06:09 AM
  #3  
Lavender
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,455
Thanked 78 Times in 67 Posts
Default

So I guess the ZR1 was tested in the afternoon when it was hot as hell vs the rest in the cool morning air. That is not biased at all lmao. What a bunch of clowns really.
Lavender is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Lavender For This Useful Post:
ArmchairArchitect (10-28-2018)
Old 10-27-2018, 10:00 AM
  #4  
plasboy
CF Senior Member
 
plasboy's Avatar
 
Member Since: Sep 2011
Location: Licking MO
Posts: 1,176
Thanked 75 Times in 68 Posts
Default

Thanks Tadge for the response. I always take the magazine tests with a grain of salt.
plasboy is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to plasboy For This Useful Post:
ArmchairArchitect (10-28-2018)
Old 10-27-2018, 10:32 AM
  #5  
CPhelps
CF Senior Member
 
CPhelps's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2006
Location: Vergennes VT
Posts: 978
Thanked 24 Times in 21 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Lavender View Post
So I guess the ZR1 was tested in the afternoon when it was hot as hell vs the rest in the cool morning air. That is not biased at all lmao. What a bunch of clowns really.
No I think they tested it on the morning, but GM had to request it be run at the same time as the competitors, so then the author of the story wrote it as GM begging for the morning, with no context that they were just asking for even footing, instead framing it like they were begging for an advantage.
CPhelps is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CPhelps For This Useful Post:
ArmchairArchitect (10-28-2018), Bwright (12-26-2018)
Old 10-27-2018, 11:13 AM
  #6  
Lavender
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,455
Thanked 78 Times in 67 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by CPhelps View Post
No I think they tested it on the morning, but GM had to request it be run at the same time as the competitors, so then the author of the story wrote it as GM begging for the morning, with no context that they were just asking for even footing, instead framing it like they were begging for an advantage.
No i don't think so. Motor Trend apparently wanted to make sure the ZR1 look bad vs the rest of the "heavy hitters". I guess they succeeded at doing so... judging by certain peoples comments @ C7 ZR1 section of this forum. Comical really!
Lavender is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Lavender For This Useful Post:
ArmchairArchitect (10-28-2018)
Old 10-27-2018, 12:22 PM
  #7  
Telepierre
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
Telepierre's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,350
Thanked 124 Times in 94 Posts
Default

1. Hot weather test versus cooler weather test. Add insult to injury and deceitfully communicate it and print it as "begging"
2. Non street compliant tires test versus stock street tires
3. PTM disablement versus non PTM/nanny disablement
4. Grossly misrepresentation of "as tested" weights and performance

If this is what it takes to sell goods in the 250K+ car club then I can only laugh and empathize..
Telepierre is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Telepierre For This Useful Post:
ArmchairArchitect (10-28-2018), Bwright (12-26-2018), johnglenntwo (10-31-2018), Lavender (10-28-2018), skank (10-29-2018), trooper (10-31-2018)
Old 10-27-2018, 04:52 PM
  #8  
CPhelps
CF Senior Member
 
CPhelps's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2006
Location: Vergennes VT
Posts: 978
Thanked 24 Times in 21 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Lavender View Post
No i don't think so. Motor Trend apparently wanted to make sure the ZR1 look bad vs the rest of the "heavy hitters". I guess they succeeded at doing so... judging by certain peoples comments @ C7 ZR1 section of this forum. Comical really!
I thought I remembered the article complaining about putting power down in the cold weather which is why I thought GM's request was granted. I'll have to read the article again.
CPhelps is offline  
Old 10-27-2018, 08:25 PM
  #9  
keagan
CF Senior Member
 
keagan's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,611
Thanked 267 Times in 180 Posts
Default

Thank you Tadge! The Corvette is and will always be a force to be reckon with in the sports and super car world! I say job well done. Itís an honor to have our cars be in conversation with the cars itís been tested against. I say team Corvette and Corvette is the little engine that could.
keagan is online now  
Old 10-30-2018, 09:55 PM
  #10  
johnglenntwo
CF Senior Member
 
johnglenntwo's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2010
Location: Beaverton OR
Posts: 7,520
Thanked 141 Times in 125 Posts
Default Very Passive! ;)

Mero did his job! Too bad we don't really know the context of which as it pertains to 'Race Mode'. Could a happy driver excitably consider 'Race' all off!?
(Are they taking a passive high road here, Too? 'They know we basically know!')
Dono, tink -yes!

Last edited by johnglenntwo; 10-31-2018 at 12:02 AM.
johnglenntwo is online now  
Old 11-01-2018, 12:45 PM
  #11  
85nova
CF Member
 
85nova's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2017
Location: West Coast, USA
Posts: 53
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Very informative and thoughtful response.

Thanks and congratulations on the GTLM team championship!

https://sportscarchampionship.imsa.c...ngs/team%C2%A0
85nova is offline  
Old 11-06-2018, 07:45 PM
  #12  
TTRotary
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Jan 2000
Location: Gorgeous Left Coast Florida. Bye Bye & F-YU Mexifornia
Posts: 10,249
Thanked 92 Times in 38 Posts
Default

Good summation by Tadge, and I wish he was elaborate more on the magazine's testing procedures (he has to be diplomatic). I do wonder why we give any credence to these "tests" any way, and especially the laughable BDC. The 2017 BDC was a absolute abomination and an exercise in trying to engineer outcomes that would suit their favorite cars.

They put Octane boost in the GTR, but the other pressurized cars got nothing. That included the 488, the 911 Turbo, the Camaro and so on. As it turned out, the Nissan broke anyway, despite MT making every effort to try to put it over the top and Nissan (as usual) having their top engineers there in person to tweak the car. It is dishonest, but you have to admire their dedication to ensure good magazine test outcomes and using every inch of the rope handed them by the "test" organizers.

MT were especially intent on making sure no Corvette got anywhere near the top spot. First, they tested a GS and not a Z06. Then, they ran the car very first out, early morning, in crappy conditions, knowing full well the Cup 2s would never get enough heat in them to perform well. All the other top contenders ran in the afternoon. They also ran in Sport mode on some trumped-up excuse about settings. The only fair shake the Vette got was the figure 8, which they were forced to run in quick succession to the other cars for scheduling reasons. The GS finished that #1, and of course this was not even acknowledged anywhere in the article.

At at least the Ferrari and not the Porsche won, for a change, but BDC is an abject disgrace nonetheless.
TTRotary is offline  
Old 11-06-2018, 11:54 PM
  #13  
jimmyb
CF Senior Member
 
jimmyb's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 6,694
Thanked 953 Times in 525 Posts
Default

Car and Driver has always been (IMO) the best of the car magazines in terms of fairness (been a subscriber for 40 years). Motor Trend has always been (again, IMO) written for kids. The "begging" comment was typical of them and why I don't buy their magazine and haven't for decades.
jimmyb is offline  
Old 11-10-2018, 04:05 PM
  #14  
K.I.T.T.
CF Senior Member
 
K.I.T.T.'s Avatar
 
Member Since: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,803
Thanked 607 Times in 339 Posts
Default

I think the real "best driver car" test and results can be seen simply by attending hpde's, going to optima ultimate street car competitions and looking throughout scca and nasa "affordable" events. Corvette C5-C7 is just winner winner, and more winner.
K.I.T.T. is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to K.I.T.T. For This Useful Post:
ArmchairArchitect (11-15-2018)
Old 11-13-2018, 08:30 PM
  #15  
SBC_and_a_stick
CF Senior Member
 
SBC_and_a_stick's Avatar
 
Member Since: Nov 2012
Location: North California
Posts: 4,639
Thanked 494 Times in 280 Posts
Default

BDC included among others, an SUV, a Kia, and a front wheel drive hatch. I don't see a conclusion from the media that the Corvette should be compared against exotics. We often see the cheap or economy cars make it into the top few slots in these comparisons.

The latest BDC comparison stated the time differentials the Lambo got while being tested later in the the day, and the times were still considerably quicker than the ZR1:
"The Lambo's first flying lap stops the clock at 1:30.00. [...] Because the Lamborghini has twice broken the noise limit and a third strike would restrict the car to 30 mph on the track, we decide to switch to the quieter action of filming and photography before we try a final hot lap later in the day. By then, though, with the track temperature up, the magic is gone for good, and a 1:31.00 is all Randy can manage."
So subtract a second for less than ideal track time temperature and you still get 1:31.46. That is to say ZR1 doesn't move up in the rankings at all.

As for the car being optimized for a track, a) no production car comes with damper and aero settings optimized for a specific track, b) Corvettes are sold worldwide/nationwide, c) cars may be better suited for a track than others but Motor Trend didn't pick Laguna Seca to shaft Corvette.

I would have preferred Tadge talked about something relevant, like those Cup 2 R tires. I don't find any of his arguments here persuasive, although this dialog does usually provide some useful input. It is not the case here.
SBC_and_a_stick is offline  
 


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: [ANSWERED] Thoughts on Results of Best Driver's and Lightning Lap?


Sponsored Ads
Vendor Directory

Contact Us - About Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.