Feffman

Several drivers attending our (www.MVPTrackTime.com) have looked into coverage and been suprised both ways. I am with USAA and if you call them to ask about HPDE coverage they'll probably cancel you. A guy called me the other day noting State Farm will cover him for any HPDE!!!

I'm going to sign up for Laurel DE (www.LaurelDE.com) before my first event later this year. It's not a US based company, but it appears they've paid when necessary.

Mark "Feff" Pfeffer
www.MVPTrackTime.com

AU N EGL

We have a State Farm agent as an instructor. He mentioned that his company would want ALL your business, not just the car you take to DEs.
They do realise that the average person who goes to DEs has three vehicals, the DE car is not the primary driver, and a larger then average size home. In many cases a vacation home as well.


Again guys, rember it is your skill and safe driving on track that pevents you from having accidents. This is not to go bang up your car and go get a new one at someone elses expense.

Rear Engine

I am on my third year w/ Laurel. Luckily, I haven't needed to use them, but glad to know it's there. Dave Empringham is great to deal with and on the rare times I have called him with a question, he calls me right back....I think that last time he was in Daytona. He races the Rolex series.

You can choose 10,20, or 30 DE days per year and it comes w/ a $5,000 deductable (except my particular car has a $10k, which I'm not too happy about). I think I pay around $1,300 for 30 days. With that deductable it is for a total loss, so hopefully I will never have to use it.

Jim

John Shiels

how would they know how many HPDE you do each year?

Rear Engine

You have to fax in the name of the event you are attending and the dates one week prior to attending. If it rains and you don't want to go, you are SOL, but if the event itself is cancelled you can get the days back.

This policy is only for DEs, not test and tune or time trials. They also have a racing policy that would include those but the cost is roughly 3 times more expensive.

BuckeyeZ06

I saw this coming in 2003; it is one of the reasons I went racing rather than the DE route.

You can write off a car; but having someone come after you for damages can be expensive. I think an umbella liability policy may cover your actions (as long as you were not doing something illegal). Just a thought.

IMO, in racing the perception of risk and shared responsibility seems more clear cut.

rudyarias

Agreed, I have four vehicles, a car trailer and a home insured with Country Companies (Illinois Farm Bureau). My agent has expressed no problem with my DE participation.

sothpaw2

To improve driving skills and enjoy some of the fabled handling characteristics of the Z06. I realize the rate is low, but I was just burned (not financially, but in time and effort, and in having the car I wanted) by someone else's mistake. Even though the police (with report & in-court testimony--although plantif's lawyer ate him up like fried chicken) said it was all her fault and not mine at all, she dragged me through the mud (court). I ended up going toe-to-toe with her lawyer in front of judge (he screwed up and I Ko'd him--he would have done better with less cross examination). What fun. People in the know tell me that whole situation is extremely rare.

It would have been worse if I had not had my own insurance--that is the only way I was made financially whole.

So what I'm really worried about with the HPDE is taking in a $30k car and then having someone else blow a corner I can't see yet in front of me, then, I come up on them and can't stop. Usually you will see a flag but sometimes if you were pretty close behind the accident, you are just out of luck.

As for a regular insurance company--that would be luck of the draw--if they have no clause and don't want to pay, they can just make you fight it in court. Even if they have no case--this woman who ran me over had no case at all and lied through her teeth. It can happen. Judges, by the way, are not too aware of the laws of physics, they play by their rules (legal manuevering). Then there is oil or debris on the track, etc.

If I can't find insurance, maybe I will track my old V6 F-body with the worn rings. I sure can walk away from that.

AU N EGL

We can certainly understand your concern. We all have had it at one time or another.

HPDEs, for the most part, an esspeiccally ours dont opporate that way. Your not going to be that close to someone else car, that is called traffic manamgment. Your Instructor will help you keep a proper and safe distance, unless coming up to pass someone.

Passing is not like on the highway, you put on the your turn signle and pull out to pass. At HPDES, the slower car givers the faster car permission to pass. Passing is only done with a proper hand signal from the car in front to acknoglage the car behind too allow the car in back to pass. No signal you dont pass.
Passing zone are only on longer straights on a deisignated side ( driver right or drivers left per passing zone- not both) and not going into braking zones. No passing going into corners or in corners what so ever.

This is not A RACING SCHOOL.

You will also sign a release waver when at event registration and to enter the motorsports facility. This waver that you sign, twice, states in part that you, your heirs or anyone else conected with you will not sue, use legal action for any reason what so ever for any reason. Also that you take full personal responsibilty for your actions in all situations.

If your worried about OTHER ppl, then a HPDE is NOT FOR YOU. It is YOUR concern about YOU that is most important. When all participants understand and accept, that they are pesonally responsable for their own actions, guess what ?? A very safe event happens.

Motorsports or any type in America could not exist without personal resposibilty.

Now if for some strange reason, there is car to car contact, ( chief instructor, and Event Master will look like this ) take all parties aside, with the each students instructor and the Chief Track Stewart, evaluate the situation, let the parties involved talk out the situation, determain fault, OFFending party will agree to pay for any and all damages to other car or track. Immidatly write a Check for a sizable amount of the damage to the person who got hit, and agrees to pay for the balance of the damages.

any damage to armco the offending party will recieve a sizable bill from the track to pay for repairs

Then the offending part is asked to leave the event and grounds, placed on a 13 - 13 probation, any incident with in 13 months and they recieve a 13 month suppension.

When ppl understand they are personally responsible, they drive much safer and not as fast. Safe event for everyone.

larryfs

how would the police be involved for an accident at a HPDE?
was the incident on track?

John Shiels

Doesn't Gieco policy ask if you have any modifications to your vehicle?

AU N EGL

They would not be. It is private property.

rudyarias

For starters, You will not be driving the HPDE on a Highway, rural road or city street so I do not understand your logic in comparing a HPDE to driving on public roads. Your Z06 on a public road is statically more likely to be in a collision with another vehicle than a guard rail/embankment.......

Well run HPDEs like the NCM's/NASA's/BMW Club's make sure you will be driving in a safe environment (no oil, debris or intrusive traffic) on the track with an INSTRUCTOR in the car at a speed in which you are learning the track. You like everyone else who enters a track for the first time will have reservations but they will subside as you learn the track and realize that it is safe to be out there.

As for your past experience on the street, I have yet to see car to car contact at ANY HPDE that I've attended/instructed. When a track incident does happen, it is usually due to equipment failure or driver error causing the car to go off/spin out. So chances of you going to court to sue somebody is nil. Speaking of insurance, I do not know the Insurance Laws in Maryland but in Illinois you are covered by your own insurer when in a collision with another vehicle. They are required to repair your car if you choose to go through them. Its items like diminished value (except Georgia - Mabry v State Farm) in addition to your repair to which they may play games with you.

Finally, Driver Psychology has a LOT to do with the success of his/her first HPDE. If you subconsciously go into a HPDE for the first time expecting something to happen. IT WILL HAPPEN!!! Like keeping your eyes on the track and constantly looking ahead when your drive. The car will go to where you are looking. Going into a HPDE for the first time with the mind frame to learn, you will be fine and have a safe event. Second, HPDEs are about driving skills. The goal is to learn to be smooth not pass every car on the track.

AU N EGL

Rudy says it very well here.

Thank you.

sothpaw2

He sure does. "The car will go to where you are looking", and "be smooth" are the 2 biggest lessons I learned from the 5 HPDE's I've been in, along with proper steering wheel usage and learning to scan for flags, the guys ahead, and the road ahead all at the same time.

My analogy to the street is that the extremely unlikely does happen. Also, that even if you are right, other drivers/ins co.s with their own agendas can try to fight you in court which is not pretty.

I am glad to hear car/car crashes aren't common; I remember my NASA manual from my first HPDE gave instructions on driving around a wreck, where to look and what line to take, so I thought it was not unheard of;
hence the reason for the flag men (along with the oil / fluid possibilities).

I have HPDE'd in the rain (hurricane Ivan started at 8:00am and never let up) and that caused some issues for some. Also, when the track was drying after it had just rained/ then it drizzles again--hard to judge conditions.

sothpaw2

They wouldn't. No.

The point I was making is that there are some people in this world that will really try to screw you over, and even if you are right, and followed the rules, the very unlikely can happen (odds of someone suing you when everyone agrees it's all their fault--nill). An insurance company can be pretty cold and disingenous--I can see them doing something similar to what this woman did to get out of paying.

BuckeyeZ06

I want to clarify my stance on DEs.

My issue with them is really what I percieve the abuse of the DE as an event. I here (read) about people discussing how fast they are going at DEs. We all know the goal of DEs is educational (to learn how to drive you car the proper way) and ultimately that involves stepping up the pace. But (and this may be an erroneous intepretation) I see too many people trying to set FTD or modifying their car to go faster.

The way Golden Eagle describes thier events sounds very rash and well thought out. I did one NASA HPDE before I went racing and that event was run well. But some events don't put a tight enough restraint on the more "aggressive" drivers. Although I was told be someone who ran an event that if I showed up in my T1 car I wouldn't necassarily be welcomed with open arms. They don't want me practicing racing. Makes sense after I gave it some thought.

sothpaw2

I think you are a lot better with a NASA event and you shouldn't see the abuse there. I liked my NASA experience. I saw abuse at another event, guys passing with no point by, guys not giving point by, etc etc.
With the better run orgs. you should not get abuse and these guys should be in check for the most part.

But there is still risk IMHO, not just from yourself but from unforseen circumstances & others.

AU N EGL

Thank you and too all our instructors who give me lots of input as to what a HPDE IS AND IS NOT. I put a lot of trust into our instructors, they are the ones who keep the students in control and very safe.

If some one wants open tracking or TT or what ever, the NCM events are NOT FOR THEM. We focus on the Novice to Intermediate level driver with a few Advance students. NOT TT and NOT Open tracking.

They are many many good events for them, just not ours.

Now dont get me wrong, it is not tea totalling around the track either. Guys have lots and lots of fun and great driving.


and Buckeye I agree with you, some DEs or track events can be frick'n dangorious. W2W racing may be much safer then some DE events.

rudyarias

NCM, NASA, PCA & BMW Club hold very structured DEs for their Newbies (Novice to Intermediate). The perception you're picking up is from people on this forum who treat it as wheel to wheel racing instead of what it really is. Come to either a NCM, NASA or both, you will experience a very structured and safe event. I've instructed students driving borrowed T1 C5s/AI Mustangs in NASA HPDE 1 & 2. With NASA & NCM, HPDE is about teaching you to be smooth on the track regardless of what you're driving.