Trouble Hooking When Exiting Turns
07-06-2009, 09:16 PM
#61
Former Vendor
His issue is that the car feels DRAMATICALLY different between 2 events ago and this event at the same track... and the only thing he changed was alignment (more aggressive)... He says his car was sticking great 2 events ago.
...which is why some of us are trying to get him to look at things other than alignment... Something Else Changed.
...which is why some of us are trying to get him to look at things other than alignment... Something Else Changed.
Randy
07-07-2009, 07:00 AM
#62
Team Owner
Member Since: Sep 2003
Location: Raleigh / Rolesville NC
Posts: 43,084
Likes: 0
Received 25 Likes
on
25 Posts
New tires stick great.
Rs Heat cycles
0-4 ( very good stick and grip)
4-6 ( OK stick or grip )
6-12 ( good but no where near like new_
12+ better then street tires, but if your use to NEW Rs or As forget it
A's cut those numbers in half
That is HEAT cycles, not events.
So if you get 4 sessions per day for two days, that is 8 heat cycles.
and some ppl wonder why on the June Sprints thread there was talk about the top competitors going out each session on Sticker (new) As
Rs Heat cycles
0-4 ( very good stick and grip)
4-6 ( OK stick or grip )
6-12 ( good but no where near like new_
12+ better then street tires, but if your use to NEW Rs or As forget it
A's cut those numbers in half
That is HEAT cycles, not events.
So if you get 4 sessions per day for two days, that is 8 heat cycles.
and some ppl wonder why on the June Sprints thread there was talk about the top competitors going out each session on Sticker (new) As
07-07-2009, 12:11 PM
#63
Drifting
Again, thanks everyone for your input.
Just to make clear again. I am not mixing tires. I have power over steer with used R6 and new MPSC's.
My alignment changed (and maybe something is loose, but no off tracks to cause that). My driving has not, I have driven on this same track for years. But I am older .......
Oli, there just didn't seem like time to do the tire pyrometer readings. But your idea of driving my car would probably have been a better and faster solution .......
DH
Just to make clear again. I am not mixing tires. I have power over steer with used R6 and new MPSC's.
My alignment changed (and maybe something is loose, but no off tracks to cause that). My driving has not, I have driven on this same track for years. But I am older .......
Oli, there just didn't seem like time to do the tire pyrometer readings. But your idea of driving my car would probably have been a better and faster solution .......
DH
07-07-2009, 06:43 PM
#64
Team Owner
Thread Starter
DH
07-11-2009, 07:29 PM
#65
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Okay, I went back to the alignment place to see if anything had changed. If you compare the ORIGINAL final settings to the FOLLOWUP original settings you will see that the TOE changed alot. Everything was tight and I don't know if this is normal .... he said the markings hadn't even moved, so maybe it was just muffed somehow??
Anyways, I had the REAR TOE put to .08 (IN) which was the highest ORIGINAL STOCK setting. Put the Rear Camber down to -1.0. And had the front TOE put to Zero.
I left the front Camber alone since my stock 285x35 NT05 were wearing perfectly. I did see that the rear 335x30 were getting no wear on the outside inch or so .... I hope I shouldn't have lowered the rear camber to -.75 !!!!
Thrust angle is now ZERO ..... is that good or bad ????
The guy said everything looked tight. I couldn't see any bolts backed out. But we didn't put a wrench on anything.
I did a little spirited driving and it felt real good .... stable, great cornering and tracked straight but I know I will only know for sure when I get back on the track.
Well does anyone think that excess TOE with the -1.25 Camber in the rear would cause me to feel a loss of traction exiting turns. Should I have less power over steer now?? Any thoughts are appreciated.
Here is the first (ORIGINAL) sheet and todays (FOLLOWUP)
ORIGINAL
[IMG]
[/IMG]FOLLOWUP
DH
Last edited by Dirty Howie; 07-11-2009 at 07:34 PM.
07-12-2009, 12:17 AM
#66
DH,
How a Car is prepped is one problem. Driving a car prepped that way is another. The way I see it you got 3 choices, stock settings and learn to drive it, the settings of someone you trust and learn to drive it, or your own settings you develop. Go try these new settings and see what happens. If they are no good return the car to stock settings then see what the car does. Then ask for advice of someone you trust and only adjust one end of the car at a time and only make one adjustment at a time. Do not do things like drop pressures and increase negative camber at the same time because then what ever effect you get you will not know which change caused the move. Of course this makes sense but we are all impatient. It can take a long time to develop the car and the driver this way. Alternatively There is a huge advantage in trusting settings from a guy faster than you even if you can't drive his way because you know that person can get the laptimes you want and it is up to you to see if you can speed learn to do it. Sometimes you can and sometimes it is just too big a jump and you end up wasting time because the gap is too big in where you are to where you have to go. I am doing this right now with the so cal T1 gang basically being spoonfeed by them with me trying to get somewhere close in laptimes. Trusting 2 or more sources if fine but just one guy at a time. If one guy says more front toe out makes him faster and another guy says more rear toe in makes him faster doing "both" at the same time is unlikely to make you faster than both guys. You seem pretty addicted to the sport and it is cheap and easy to do your own alignments and takes very few tools. Take dreamin up on his offer and learn how to do it. I use a home depot digital laser level, home depot floor tiles, scrap steel slip plates, home depot tape measure,and some string. I am not a big fan of laser alignment racks because if the lasers are not calibrated you get the most perfect wrong alignment. There is no substitute for know what you are trying to achieve vs. reading the machine.
How a Car is prepped is one problem. Driving a car prepped that way is another. The way I see it you got 3 choices, stock settings and learn to drive it, the settings of someone you trust and learn to drive it, or your own settings you develop. Go try these new settings and see what happens. If they are no good return the car to stock settings then see what the car does. Then ask for advice of someone you trust and only adjust one end of the car at a time and only make one adjustment at a time. Do not do things like drop pressures and increase negative camber at the same time because then what ever effect you get you will not know which change caused the move. Of course this makes sense but we are all impatient. It can take a long time to develop the car and the driver this way. Alternatively There is a huge advantage in trusting settings from a guy faster than you even if you can't drive his way because you know that person can get the laptimes you want and it is up to you to see if you can speed learn to do it. Sometimes you can and sometimes it is just too big a jump and you end up wasting time because the gap is too big in where you are to where you have to go. I am doing this right now with the so cal T1 gang basically being spoonfeed by them with me trying to get somewhere close in laptimes. Trusting 2 or more sources if fine but just one guy at a time. If one guy says more front toe out makes him faster and another guy says more rear toe in makes him faster doing "both" at the same time is unlikely to make you faster than both guys. You seem pretty addicted to the sport and it is cheap and easy to do your own alignments and takes very few tools. Take dreamin up on his offer and learn how to do it. I use a home depot digital laser level, home depot floor tiles, scrap steel slip plates, home depot tape measure,and some string. I am not a big fan of laser alignment racks because if the lasers are not calibrated you get the most perfect wrong alignment. There is no substitute for know what you are trying to achieve vs. reading the machine.
07-12-2009, 04:45 AM
#67
Team Owner
Thread Starter
DH,
How a Car is prepped is one problem. Driving a car prepped that way is another. The way I see it you got 3 choices, stock settings and learn to drive it, the settings of someone you trust and learn to drive it, or your own settings you develop. Go try these new settings and see what happens. If they are no good return the car to stock settings then see what the car does. Then ask for advice of someone you trust and only adjust one end of the car at a time and only make one adjustment at a time. Do not do things like drop pressures and increase negative camber at the same time because then what ever effect you get you will not know which change caused the move. Of course this makes sense but we are all impatient. It can take a long time to develop the car and the driver this way. Alternatively There is a huge advantage in trusting settings from a guy faster than you even if you can't drive his way because you know that person can get the laptimes you want and it is up to you to see if you can speed learn to do it. Sometimes you can and sometimes it is just too big a jump and you end up wasting time because the gap is too big in where you are to where you have to go. I am doing this right now with the so cal T1 gang basically being spoonfeed by them with me trying to get somewhere close in laptimes. Trusting 2 or more sources if fine but just one guy at a time. If one guy says more front toe out makes him faster and another guy says more rear toe in makes him faster doing "both" at the same time is unlikely to make you faster than both guys. You seem pretty addicted to the sport and it is cheap and easy to do your own alignments and takes very few tools. Take dreamin up on his offer and learn how to do it. I use a home depot digital laser level, home depot floor tiles, scrap steel slip plates, home depot tape measure,and some string. I am not a big fan of laser alignment racks because if the lasers are not calibrated you get the most perfect wrong alignment. There is no substitute for know what you are trying to achieve vs. reading the machine.
How a Car is prepped is one problem. Driving a car prepped that way is another. The way I see it you got 3 choices, stock settings and learn to drive it, the settings of someone you trust and learn to drive it, or your own settings you develop. Go try these new settings and see what happens. If they are no good return the car to stock settings then see what the car does. Then ask for advice of someone you trust and only adjust one end of the car at a time and only make one adjustment at a time. Do not do things like drop pressures and increase negative camber at the same time because then what ever effect you get you will not know which change caused the move. Of course this makes sense but we are all impatient. It can take a long time to develop the car and the driver this way. Alternatively There is a huge advantage in trusting settings from a guy faster than you even if you can't drive his way because you know that person can get the laptimes you want and it is up to you to see if you can speed learn to do it. Sometimes you can and sometimes it is just too big a jump and you end up wasting time because the gap is too big in where you are to where you have to go. I am doing this right now with the so cal T1 gang basically being spoonfeed by them with me trying to get somewhere close in laptimes. Trusting 2 or more sources if fine but just one guy at a time. If one guy says more front toe out makes him faster and another guy says more rear toe in makes him faster doing "both" at the same time is unlikely to make you faster than both guys. You seem pretty addicted to the sport and it is cheap and easy to do your own alignments and takes very few tools. Take dreamin up on his offer and learn how to do it. I use a home depot digital laser level, home depot floor tiles, scrap steel slip plates, home depot tape measure,and some string. I am not a big fan of laser alignment racks because if the lasers are not calibrated you get the most perfect wrong alignment. There is no substitute for know what you are trying to achieve vs. reading the machine.
I appreciate your input. No doubt that doing it the old fashion way without computers can give excellent results. I just really don't have the time to learn to do it.
I'm going to try these settings and hope I have less over steer. If not I will take it to one of the specialty shops.
BTW: Its Steve (Mountainbiker) that has offered to do it with strings and whatever. And he knows what he's doing. He taught me how to change pads and rotors on my C5. Dreamin offered to check my suspension for loose bolts.
Are you coming to ACS ???
DH
07-12-2009, 07:47 AM
#68
Burning Brakes
Both times he made changes to rear camber. Although those cam bolts may "look tight," if the cams move the alignment changes. Mark where the cams are this time so you can see if they ever move.
If that's not the problem, is it possible something is binding or sticking in the rear? For example, how do the bushings look in both upper and lower control arms and on the shocks? Do you have any polyurethane bushings that might be sticking?
07-12-2009, 12:58 PM
#69
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Thrust angle is the difference between the rear axle and the front axle direction. Zero is good. Anything else means the car drives a little sideways -- aka it "crab walks."
Both times he made changes to rear camber. Although those cam bolts may "look tight," if the cams move the alignment changes. Mark where the cams are this time so you can see if they ever move.
If that's not the problem, is it possible something is binding or sticking in the rear? For example, how do the bushings look in both upper and lower control arms and on the shocks? Do you have any polyurethane bushings that might be sticking?
Both times he made changes to rear camber. Although those cam bolts may "look tight," if the cams move the alignment changes. Mark where the cams are this time so you can see if they ever move.
If that's not the problem, is it possible something is binding or sticking in the rear? For example, how do the bushings look in both upper and lower control arms and on the shocks? Do you have any polyurethane bushings that might be sticking?
I have completely and original stock suspension. And don't know what a worn bushing looks like.
I should mark them again .......
DH
07-12-2009, 04:35 PM
#71
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Not sure what you are referring to. I have not lowered the car. Do you mean if bushings are worn then ride height is affected ?????
Also I have two sets of stock wheels but different tires. NT05 on one and MPSC on other. Will the camber/toe be read differently from one set to the other ?????
DH
07-12-2009, 05:04 PM
#72
Burning Brakes
Bert
Not sure what you are referring to. I have not lowered the car. Do you mean if bushings are worn then ride height is affected ?????
Also I have two sets of stock wheels but different tires. NT05 on one and MPSC on other. Will the camber/toe be read differently from one set to the other ?????
DH
Not sure what you are referring to. I have not lowered the car. Do you mean if bushings are worn then ride height is affected ?????
Also I have two sets of stock wheels but different tires. NT05 on one and MPSC on other. Will the camber/toe be read differently from one set to the other ?????
DH
07-12-2009, 10:34 PM
#73
Yes because the transverse leaf spring setup is so darn hard to settle. I come from the coil spring world and I swear when I adjust the vette it takes me twice as long just trying to settle the car after each adjustment. If the tech was a little too quick and not paying attention your setting will not change but not really be properly recorded as you think. Maybe I'm really slow but when I align my vette it takes me hours! I think some of that time will go away once I lock the camber with aftermarket camber plates.
07-12-2009, 10:54 PM
#74
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Yes because the transverse leaf spring setup is so darn hard to settle. I come from the coil spring world and I swear when I adjust the vette it takes me twice as long just trying to settle the car after each adjustment. If the tech was a little too quick and not paying attention your setting will not change but not really be properly recorded as you think. Maybe I'm really slow but when I align my vette it takes me hours! I think some of that time will go away once I lock the camber with aftermarket camber plates.
DH
07-13-2009, 03:07 PM
#75
Melting Slicks
If you make any changes to the camber or toe you have to roll the car back and forth a few times. If you actually jack it up to make changes, you have to drive around the block to get everything settled back down. I bet they don't do any of that at your shop.
Steve
Steve
07-13-2009, 03:18 PM
#76
Burning Brakes
If you make any changes to the camber or toe you have to roll the car back and forth a few times. If you actually jack it up to make changes, you have to drive around the block to get everything settled back down. I bet they don't do any of that at your shop.
Steve
Steve
07-13-2009, 04:29 PM
#77
Team Owner
Thread Starter
If you make any changes to the camber or toe you have to roll the car back and forth a few times. If you actually jack it up to make changes, you have to drive around the block to get everything settled back down. I bet they don't do any of that at your shop.
Steve
Steve
It seems like it wants to stick pretty good going around corner from stop in 1st gear ..... havn't been able to break it loose yet.
And the steering seems great with the zero front toe.
The track will tell .....
If it still sucks I will come over with fresh string
DH