tjZ06

Have any of you all seen E85 start appearing at your local Road Course? Obviously I'm most interested in CA tracks, but I'm still curious to see if it's making its way out to the tracks. I'm in the process of a motor build (well, my tuner Newtech Performance is in the process) and we're about to pick heads. Chamber size is still open for us, so we could bump the compression ration if want. With CA's crap 91 octane we were targeting 11.2:1 as a MAX, probably closer to 11. With E85 of course we could push that up a bit. Obviously I have no "need" to do it, just kinda curious.

Thanks,
TJ

Bill Dearborn

E85 supply is very limited. I haven't even seen it at a local gas station let alone at a race track. In all of NY state there may be only one gas station selling E85. I believe the GM GT2 team takes their own E85 gas to tracks they run with ALMS.

Bill

AlwaysInBoost

I wish it was more available in my area, but I've only seen two stations selling it within a 20 mile area and nothing yet at any of the road courses. Probably a good thing cause I burn thru about 1/2 a tank of 93 in a 30 minute session. If I was running E85 I'd probably have to fill up after EVERY session, that would be expensive.

ZR1 MK

Cant answer the E85 question, but you mention approx 11.2 Compression Ratio. You need to build the engine based on the Dynamic Compression Ratio for a given fuel octane, 91 in your case. Calculate both and leave a margin for Dynamic. Im 12.5 Static and 9.9 Dynamic for 93 octane. I left plenty of margin in case I can only use 91 on day.

tjZ06

I'm sure in a year or two it will be available at most courses. If I go E85 (leaning more and more that way) I'll have a few gasoline tunes too for when I'm in a bind. A 91 tune for when I get "stranded" and probably a 100 tune for when I want to track and don't feel like dragging E85 jugs with me. I'll be trailering the 'vette to events mostly next year, so a couple of drums of E85 on the trailer isn't a big deal.

-TJ

0Louis @ LG Motorsports

They use E66

tjZ06

Good points, my builder is custom specin' the cam, and certainly taking Dynamic Compression into account.

-TJ

ZR1 MK

Ive got that 5 chip program in one chip with the turn of ****. So far, Ive only tuned the one chip as my 427 passed emissions better than my 350 with zero knock, so far.

tjZ06

A little tougher for me w/ the LS PCM, I just need to have HP Tuners, the cable, and my laptop with me to switch tunes. I have E85 at the pump easily locally, it's just at the track I might have issues.

Thanks for the info.

-TJ

Joe_Knesek

Why would you want to run E85? Is it the rotten egg smell your after? Of all the fuels out there E85 would be my last choice.

mgarfias

106 octane.

redtopz

Hey TJ, did you see my gto on the dyno or something?

I brought Nick my 2005 gto I just built up with a F1A procharger and a fuel system designed for E85. He expected 700 rwhp out of it and it ended up with 761 rwhp. E85 kicks butt in a F/I engine. If you run it in your track car get ready to burn through a ton of fuel (about 30% more than gas). You could always make your own blend of E66 or E50 if you wanted. It would probably protect your engine better than race gas.

Joe_Knesek

From what I gather 106 is negated by it's lower energy content. E85 requires a 6.5:1 air fuel mixture to maximize it's potential which nearly twice as rich as 94 octane pump gas at 12.5:1. That's a big swing to be asking out of a motor.

Wouldn't something VP C10 or StreetBlaze 100 be better choices? Both have a 100 R+M/2 rating with a mixture ratio closer to pump gas.

tjZ06

Lots of reason... see below...

That's a start...

I didn't realize that was your car until now, but Nick was telling me about it!

I'm not sure where you gather your info, but here's some reading: http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/fuelin...r-ls1-e85.html

E85 actually has more power potential, though it does indeed require more fuel (though not nearly twice as much, somewhere around 30-40% for stoich but less than that at peak power).

Yes, I could probably make more power on "real" race gas, like C16. But E85 also costs about $0.20-30 LESS than 87 pump gas. As stated, the motor will use a lot more E85 though. So call it a wash on cost/mile vs. 91 pump. Also, I can get E85 at the pump easily locally (my Z is still street driven). So when I compare E85 to gas, I'm really comparing to 91.

So anyway, the overall benefits would be...

• More static compression - we're looking at around 12:1
• More dynamic compression - we can spec a cam which builds more dynamic compression
• Cooling effect - E85 provides a marked cooling effect which both provides for a cooler running motor (will be nice during 115* F days at THill) as well as allowing for more timing
• Cleaning - E85 keeps injectors super clean, and cleans/prevents any carbon buildup in the engine

Downsides...

• Availability - this is the big one: it'll probably be a few years 'til it's readily available at the track. That means taking in a few drums on the trailer. Ack.
• Fuel mileage - people actually report much less fuel mpg loss than the theoretical 30-something % extra required fuel. With the extra timing E85 allows, quicker burn, etc. the extra torque might allow lower throttle positions for the same driving conditions, making back some of the mpg.
• Smell - I haven't actually smelled it yet, so IDK.

Lots to think about.

-TJ

Joe_Knesek

Most of my comments are based on personal observation & discussions with the Roush engineers who support my friend's hydroplane team. In 2007 & 2008 the team was required to run E85 in the ECOTEC motors they were developing for GM. In 2009 the team switched to a blended fuel & the motor produced more power & torque.

Obviously this doesn't directly translate to our motors but the air fuel ratios do.

Here's a link about the team:
http://gmtunersource.com/index.php/b...werboat-racing

Racefool

No I haven’t seen E85 at local road courses, I heard it was very corrosive!

tjZ06

It is not, that's one of the many myths about E85. I found the info below on LS1tech... now I didn't hunt down the sourcing etc so I'm sure you can call that into question...

"I stumbled over this while searching for something else.

Materials that have performed well in E85 systems include, but may not be limited to, those listed below. U.S. Department of Energy

Metals:
Unplated steel
Stainless steel
Black iron
Bronze
Non-Metallic Materials:
Teflon
Nitrile
Viton
Polypropylene
Buna-N
Neoprene rubber
Non-metallic thermoset plastics
Thermoset reinforced fiberglass tanks
Thermo plastic piping



DURABILITY OF VARIOUS PLASTICS: ALCOHOLS VS. GASOLINE (Mother’s Alcohol Fuel Seminar)

-----------------------------Ethanol----------Methanol------------Gasoline
Conventional Polyethylene-good------------excellent-------------poor
High-density Polyethylene-excellent---------excellent-------------good
Teflon---------------------excellent----------excellent--------------excellent
Tefzel----------------------excellent--------excellent-------------excellent
Polypropylene--------------good------------excellent-------------fair
Polymethylpentene---------good------------excellent-------------fair
Polycarbonate--------------good------------fair-------------------fair
Polyvinyl Chloride-----------good------------fair-------------------poor

Excellent: Will tolerate years of exposure.
Fair: Some signs of deterioration after one week of exposure.
Good: No damage after 30 days of exposure, should tolerate several years of exposure.
Poor: Deteriorates readily.
NOTE: All tests were made with liquids at 122 deg F.
Compare Gasoline to Ethanol and make your own decision."

-TJ

AU N EGL

EPA?

Time to look for some local governments that run E85 cars. and head to their garages. Ask the maintenance guys

tjZ06

US DOE != EPA

Anyway, I take the above with a grain of salt, because EITHER organization is encouraging E85 and has a vested interest. That being said I did a fair amount of reading over at ls1tech and there are lots of people with several years of E85 in there LSX vehicles without issue. Obviously that real-world data is the most valuable.

-TJ