s'noJob

I tried several searches, but the results were so generic, (and most of them were ads for brakes,) so I thought I'd just post my questions.

I am a novice on the track, and I'm sure I'd do better if I had a more thorough understanding of braking procedures.

Fear of spinning out, fading, and/or boiling my DOT-4 fluid has me braking early and moderately - robbing me of time and speed. I find myself doing a lot of coasting before a curve.

I feel as though my car is capable of much more braking tolerance than I'm applying, but I don't know how to learn to utilize them better.

Many tracks have the 100s of feet (yards?) warning signs before a curve, but I don't know how to use them.

Regarding braking pressure, do I need to learn to brake till just before ABS kicks in?

Is there a Braking 101 thread out there that can help, or any advice you can offer?

Thanks.

By the way, this is my daily driver, so adding racing brakes is really not in the cards. Plus you can see why I am interested in preserving my ride.

.

AU N EGL

ABS is your friend

Depending on the speeds, your brake pads, your front tires.

your ***** too

Practice

normally brake HARD AND AS SHORT OF DISTANCE AS POSSIBLE.

Short-Throw

Here's something I mention in all the classes I teach:

If you really want to get better at a given track, start and maintain a log book with notes about each track you drive on -- this is no different than a caddy's notes for a golf course.

Most tracks have brake markers, they are not only information signs on distance but reference markers.

At your next event, to start, pick 1 turn to focus on. If you hit the brakes at the '3' marker and still stop too early, try braking at the '2-1/2' marker next time around. (there aren't '2-1/2' markers, just interpolate between the '3' and the '2' markers). If the '2-1/2' marker is still too early, next time around, wait until the '2' marker. Eventually you will find the exact spot to engage the brakes and still make the turn safely.

Driving by the seat of your pants and 'feeling' when to brake places too much chance in getting it correct and can be dangerous.

Remember consistency is the key. If you come out of a previous corner not as well, your speed into the next corner will be slower -- meaning you will not have to brake as early. After you've mastered one turn work on another and eventually you will be consistent throughout the track.

Driving the proper race line is critical to becoming not only better, but safer. Having a good instructor ride with you is priceless.

Most new drivers 'pop' off the brakes before the turn which upsets the car's balance and transfers weight from the front tires which is where you want it for initial turn-in grip. It's a tougher task, but try to hold your brake pedal up until apex (trail-braking) with minimal pressure.

On a scale of 1-10, 10 being the firmest, your initial brake pressure should be a 10 and 65% of your total stopping distance should be accomplished early on -- the remaining 35% of your stopping distance requires relieving the brake pressure smoothly down to a '1' until it's time to get back on the gas on corner exit. (Andy Pilgrim mentions this every year at Katech's Track Attack event at Autobahn CC.)

Of course different turns dictate different demands, and depending on speed, you may only require a tap of the brakes, etc...

Make sure you have thin-soled driving shoes. It's difficult to learn threshold braking with a sneaker. Think of walking barefoot versus with shoes, your feet are much more sensitive with less on them allowing you to process the feedback you receive through the brake pedal.

Mike

c4cruiser

What pads are you using now? One thing to improve the car's (and your) braking performance is to go with a good pad set that works for both HPDE's and street. I would talk to Adam at CarboTech and see what he recommends. With good pads and street tires, you shouldn't boil DOT4 fluids. I would add ducting to the front brakes; kits are available to add a plate to the hub and then install ducting from the factory opening to the plate.

While I don't have lots of track experience compared to others here, I would suggest that you concentrate on finding the right line at a given track and gain seat time. Braking skills will be a part of that, but there's nothing wrong with taking it easy on braking as long as you keep the speeds reasonable. Don't worry too much about how high a speed you can attain on a straight or lap times. That comes with experience.

It might help if you get an instructor at an event and ask him what are the best braking points for the turns. He should be able to show where to start braking and how much brake to use for all of the turns on the course based on your ability. Obviously your speed going into a turn will determine where to brake and how hard. He should point out which of the distance markers you should use for initiating braking.

I have heard that if you can modulate braking pressure up to just where ABS would kick in, you are getting better braking than if ABS engages. I've been able to do this with my '87 autocross/track car and it doesn't seem to upset the car compared to letting the ABS activate. This took me some time to learn, but for me it seems to work than going into a braking zone and dynamiting the brakes.

froggy47

Go out with an instructor.

sleeperstyle

this is a good idea until braking is consistent...

not sure why more corvette guys don't recommend this book..

read this book, you will show up to the track ready to really learn and not wonder about the basics anymore. i HIGHLY recommend it and ross's other books also.

https://www.google.com/shopping/prod...ed=0CHUQ8wIwAw

Bad Karma

I'm new myself, only on my second year of going to the track. I would agree with others s to focusing on the proper line. I would say get your braking done in a straight line and use a little throttle to balance the car before you turn in.

But most of all ride with an instructor and listen, get as much info as you can out of him/her. You can understand theory as much as the next guy but it always pays off to listen to the guys with more seat time.

Dirty Howie

Nice


DH

crease-guard

I've been doing this a couple years now and Short Throw has the best advice about trying to get most of your braking done in a straight line and then trial off the breaks going into the corner. It's KEY to keep the front of the car loaded until you are ready to accelerate out of the apex. As you get better you'll start to play with left foot braking and giving the slower corners a dab of left foot to set the front of the car into the corner. Just as you can throttle steer, i.e. rotate, out of a corner you'll find you can brake steer (to a certain degree), i.e. rotate, into a corner. I've just now figured this out this year.

The KEY for me was having an instructor in the car giving me brake and gas signals as I was doing is completely wrong. Once he sat in the passenger seat using hand signals I could see out of my peripheral vision to indicate gas and brake, that's when it all clicked and I had the proverbial epiphany. I could plainly feel how different the car felt going into and out of a corner. I can tell now when I do it right and when I do it wrong.

Bottom line: Read short throws post over and over and the next instructor you get, tell him or her you want signals as to brake and gas as they would apply through the corner if they were driving. Then you can start to feel what the car is supposed to do.

braknl8

there was an extremely good brake thread going about 10-12 months ago... I'm trying to find it but have to run at the moment. I know Froggy47 and SouthernSon posted. Do you guys recall it?

Bill Dearborn

Here is another idea. If you are having trouble determining when to hit the brakes start at the point where you normally hit the brakes for a certain turn and do a maximum braking effort and bring the car down to the speed you want to enter the turn at (only do this when there isn't anybody behind you). Note where the car gets down to that speed and how far that is away from the turn in point. Then move your initial brake application half of that distance and repeat the exercise. Your speed will increase as you move your braking point closer to the turn in point so you have to approach the final adjustments with some care or you will overshoot the mark. A good turn to practice on is one where there is some run off room straight ahead. When you get good at that then you can practice braking to the apex and slowly releasing the brake as you approach the apex (don't do this by looking at the apex area, look down the track and see the apex in your peripheral vision.

Trail braking isn't appropriate for all turns and if you aren't trail braking one thing to remember is you want to start turning the steering wheel the instant before the front of the car bobs up as you gently lift off the brake. This allows you to keep some weight transfer forward as you start coaxing the front of the car to change direction.

Bill

SunnydayDILYSI

Also read "Ultimate Speed Secrets" and get more seat time. The biggest turning point for me was learning to keep my head up and look past the turn to where I wanted to end up on the next strait (i.e., at full track out). If you do that, the rest starts to come more natural.

SunnydayDILYSI

One more thought; if putting on track pads isn't in the cards, then don't go to the track. You can swap pads back and forth before and after going to the track . However, using street pads on the track is just a bad idea for anyone other than a first timer. They will melt away when you get faster.

s'noJob

Thanks for the reference. I just ordered the book.

.

Charley Hoyt

I think this is the one you are referring to..... Lots of great information

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...-question.html

Charley

s'noJob

Thanks for the input. I actually have gone out with instructors - in fact I've got a hyperdrive at VIR coming up in a few weeks with an instructor. And you're right, I do learn an awful lot with a trained instructor by my side. It's been about 4-5 years since I went out with an instructor, though.

However, I have also done parade laps and open track days more recently without an instructor, and without that level of support, I feel kinda lonely out there.

A couple weeks after my upcoming hyperdrive, I have Gripfest at NCCAR - an opportunity to take solo laps and try out what I learn from my instructor, from this thread, and from the book that sleeperstyle recommended.

.

s'noJob

I'm using stock GM pads and rotors.

This and the other referenced thread mention threshold and trail braking, but I'm still struggling to understand those terms.


.

SunnydayDILYSI

Many instructors teach that managing the traction patch (i.e.,the small portion of our tires that are on the pavement at a given time) is the key to going fast. Managing this traction patch to go fast means that you constantly push your tires to the limit of their traction but not disrupt it with sudden movements (i.e., don't suddenly apply gas, brakes,or steering in a jerky manner that would unsettle the car and cause you to push your tires past the traction limit). Most also teach that your tires can only do one thing well at a time (i.e., accelerate, brake or turn). After you master getting around the track in this way, your instructor will teach you how to trail brake. Trail brake means that you apply the brakes later, softer, and continue braking well into certain turns. Mastering trail braking is key to getting good lap times. However, it is almost impossible to master if you don't have the basics down. I know I mentioned this above, but I strongly recommend "Ultimate Speed Secrets". Great book.

pkincy

Can you find a little used road near your home that is kinda in the middle of nowhere??

We did an exercise at our Autox schools simply setting up cones to define a road surface and put a cone at the end of this "road".

We than asked the student to get up to 45 mph and wait as late as they could to brake at all but to brake as hard as they could in order to stop right at the cone rather than knock it down. Every time the student would stop well short of the cone. Than with lots of repetition they got closer and closer until they got the feel of heavy controlled braking.

ABS is your friend. Threshold braking is used for non ABS braking just on the threshold of lockup which means sliding the tires. So with ABS the car is built to "threshold" brake for you. When you are doing the exercise get on the brakes hard enough to activate ABS until you can feel that rate of deceleration. If you haven't hit ABS pulsing you aren't braking hard enough at least on this safe practice course.

I also would expect to make a mistake or two. You should pick a corner with lots of runoff or that is very wide past the apex and deliberately wait on your braking a bit late. Than get on the brakes hard. If you don't get slowed down enough to make the corner simply delay your turn in a bit. That will allow you to get a feel for how long it takes to slow the car from various speeds.

My best learning was always from riding with a top notch driver and just observing what they were doing. Every time I could beg a ride with a "hot shoe" I would jump in. It is amazing what you will learn.

Perry

Greywolfe

Ideally you want to brake as hard as you can (just before lockup or ABS) as late as you can and then ease off the pedal pressure before turn-in.

WARNING: you have to work up to this slowly. ie. start braking at the 500 foot marker then if ok try 450, 425, 400 etc etc until you find your latest braking point where you can still make the corner in control. Do this slowly and methodically.

I would definitely swap out to a racing pad for track days even for your DD and make sure you use good fluid and bleed.

Have fun!